Howard is first, along with people who will vote anti-McCain.

I don't understand the vitriol against HC.  I had more money in my pocket during the Clinton years . . a lot more money.  How about you guys?  How'd you all do during those years?  I never thought of buying a gun to protect myself either. 

Someone reminded me today that black men got the vote 50 years before women.   Is it possible white men will vote for a black man, becuz he's a MAN, and becuz they're sexist and misogynists?  Is HC is being vilified partially becuz of closet hatred towards women?  How come we're not talking about that but yelling racist every chance we get?

Thank goodness the hate spewed forth here towards HC is not evident as I move around town.  Dems are not very happy with either of them....but I've not heard anyone say they would never vote for her if she's the nominee. Pat, what you're saying is that you'd hand over the country to Bush 3 rather than vote for HC.

My jaw is on the ground. 

Sorry sea, I'm tired of voting anti ~

hand over the country to Bush 3 rather than vote for HC

Given that choice .....................

Yes, we had money in our pocket in those Clinton years. Totally agree.

Do you think that there is some kind of magic that the Clinton's have that would bring the money back into our pockets?

seashell,  I wonder if you have been paying attention to the concerns many of us have about Hillary because of her actions and words.  And words DO matter.  Your post reads as if the past several months haven't happened.  I too was willing to vote for Hillary if Obama didn't win the nomination.  But now, after her racist surrogate attacks, her own snide insinuations, her failure to respect Howard Dean's strategy, oh yes, and her failure to respect those of us in the Democratic Party who prefer her opponent, I cannot in good conscience vote for her.

seashell, Hillary Clinton is the very worst of "Politics as Usual."  She is not a progressive and her views of her own history are revisionist.  I know that you have been following the recent events in the Clinton campaign.  If this is all OK with you, then there is no use in further discussion.

sunlight,  we simply can't afford to be continually at war...financially, morally or spiritually. Then, yes, we'd have money back in our pockets, our roads, our bridges etc etc etc.  Our surface streets here are filled with huge deep potholes and no one is fixing them. 

Also, some nights now I don't go dancing becuz gas prices are so high.  

We need to get troops totally outta the ME..maybe outta Japan, Germany, S. Korea.  Why the heck aren't they here protecting us during crisis, fires, etc? Or rebuilding our crumbling country?

5. Amen, donna.

Speaking of Amen - I just checked out sunlight's link to Obama's pastor. This will be turned into a big issue.

Well, since my post is before donna's -- you know what I mean.

Hope you all have a good night.

we simply can't afford to be continually at war...financially, morally or spiritually.

So, do you think that Hillary is understanding this better than Barack?

How is Hillary Clinton different from George Bush, Seashell?  She lies, she's in collusion with big money/corporations/lobbyists/special interests/the military? She voted for the war, voted for the Kyl/Lieberman amendment.  Is it because she's female that this doesn't count?

How would a vote for Hillary Clinton not be a vote for Bush 3?  She has little if any integrity; she has lied about her service; she has shilled for her husband; is it money, Seashell? That was a stock bubble much like the housing bubble. She has used racism as has her husband, as has Geraldine Ferraro.  Compared to Obama, she's not very bright.  She reiterates talking points, but doesn't seem capable of thinking independently.  She's an authoritarian-my way or the hightway- and is willing to punish those who disagree with her.  If she were a man, I'd find her as unpalatable as I do for who she is. 

I don't get it, your complete lack of holding people accountable.  No, Hillary Clinton is a vote for what we've deplored in the past seven years. 

One more thing -- I poached this from The Nation from a reader:
-------
As I mentioned the other day, Hillary is making a solid run for the title of The Tonya Harding of Politics.

------
that's about right. I don't want a Tonya Harding for POTUS.

donna, of course I've been following and of course it's not OK.  She should have fired the lot of them a long time ago.  She has some good creds to run on and their votes are much alike.  So what's really going on?  I think some people behind the scenes are helping to take her down and she knows it. 

Is it better for McCain to be prez IYO? 

Some people here are saying that they would like an HC/BO ticket which is what I think was the fix.  The fix got messed up when BO took off with his oratory and talk of hope and change.  Young people and idealists jumped on his bandwagon and that's why everything is amiss.

My guess is that even BO is surprised that he's doing so well ...again, that fix was in IMO.  And still may be.

I've said many times...I don't think either one is presidential (for our times) material and McC should be grazing in some pasture or other.

Whichever cand. is annointed, that person will be ripped to shreds - a woman and an AA. The repugs wet dream.

It's very telling that Gore, Edwards and Richardson have not endorsed.  What do you think that means?  Think. 

3.

seashell :-)
Thu, 03/13/08


What do you do for a job? What income bracket are you in?

It's very telling that Gore, Edwards and Richardson have not endorsed.  What do you think that means?  Think. 

Okay, I'll try.

Gore, Edwards and Richardson are they politically still relevant?

donna,  have you paid attention to the concerns many people have about BO?  People are usually trashed when expressing concerns or opinions on this blog.

Methinks some of you protesteth too much.   If he's so wonderful, why do you have to defend him so strongly?  He should stand on his own merits, doncha think?

You all just vote or not, the way you want.  And I'll do the same and let's respect that, OK? 

11.

seashell :-)
Thu, 03/13/08


...It's very telling that Gore, Edwards and Richardson have not endorsed. What do you think that means?

----

That they're doing as we have asked them to do. They're letting the voters decide. btw, Gore is an advisor for Obama. It was reported awhile back.

Susan, you're baiting me.  LOL

Given your criteria of holding no one accountable for anything, for going on impressions, for gut feelings and peace immediately now, my perception is that Disney could come up with a better candidate.  Nope won't get sucked into this continual nattering.

Obama is an extraordinary mind, character, an honest man,  a man who is able to see more than one perspective, who is genuine in his commitment to public service, who can bridge the gap among different factions, whose life experiences are proof of that.

If you can't see that, won't see that, bring up one bogus argument after another, then so be it.  But, to continue this as if this were a real debate with people presenting valid evidence and examples and logic is lala land.  Nope, won't do it, Seashell.

Off folks,  Must admit, I did get sucked in.  Thanks again, Keith Olbermann, for exposing the lies, the manipulation, the corruption.  Although, it's evident that has no weight for some people. 

sea,

it's ideas that destroy or built. Ideas need human brains to exist.

Hillary's ideas don't do it for me. "I'm in it to win it."

Susan, if you were a man asking me what income bracket I'm in, I'd respond by asking you how big *it* is.  LOL

gone now.   

seashell :-)

It's better for Obama to be our next President than McCain or Hillary. But Hillary will never beat McCain. And Hillary will not and is not presently helping the Democrats win back and grown our majority in Congress. It's more important to me that we win back and grow our majority in Congress.

EPA Axes Panel Chair at Request of Chemical Industry Lobbyists 

At the request of a chemical industry lobbyist, the Environmental Protection Agency removed the chair of an expert peer review panel charged with setting safe exposure levels for a toxic fire retardant that contaminates human blood and breast milk, according to documents obtained by Environmental Working Group (EWG). After doing the industry’s bidding, EPA then retroactively stripped all of the chair’s comments from the panel’s published report and republished the altered document.

In a letter to the EPA, a lobbyist for the American Chemistry Council argued that the panel chair, Dr. Deborah Rice of the Maine Center for Disease Control and Prevention, should be thrown off the panel because she exhibited an “appearance of bias” when she represented her agency's position in favor of restricting uses of Deca in her testimony before the Maine legislature. EPA acquiesced and removed Dr. Rice from the panel....

EPA’s sacking of Dr. Rice reveals a dangerous double standard where scientists and experts working for state or federal health agencies can be removed from EPA advisory panels simply because they express the views of their agency in public as a part of their job responsibilities. Meanwhile, numerous scientists with direct financial ties to the manufacturers of chemicals under review, or with publications and public statements touting the safety of chemicals they are evaluating, remain as active participants on these panels.

Deca is a developmental neurotoxin used in electronics and other consumer products, from a family of fire retardants....

http://www.ewg.org/node/26031

If Hillary had any dignity she would concede. Hoping against hope will destroy the Democratic Party.

Obama leads on all accounts.

Hillary
being stubborn just to prove that you don't give up is not very smart for one's well being.

Pat, I watch Keithie every night and he's doing a great job.  You ASSUMED that I wasn't keeping up on the flack.   If you people were tearing down BO, I'd be defending him.  You also ASSUME I don't believe in holding myself or others accountable.  You have no proof of that,  nor basis to even suggest that.  Are you walking in my shoes?  Do you follow me about in my day?  Grow my business?  Take care of my customers?

Anyway, we shall see. 

I have art work to do.  TTFN

donna,  have you paid attention to the concerns many people have about BO?  People are usually trashed when expressing concerns or opinions on this blog.

========================

I know you are concerned about the ME and the injustice of West towards the Arabs and Moslems (they are not always one in the same), as I am too.  You don't think Hillary will be more of "Business as Usual" than Obama would?

Don't you remember in the debate? They both vowed to stand by Israel, but Hillary implied a one-up-manship innuendo, that the word Obama used wasn't strong enough.

Anybody consider that maybe Hill is working for Obama? That would explain a lot, lol!!

Revote unlikely to seal either's fate

If Hillary had any dignity she would concede. Hoping against hope will destroy the Democratic Party.

==================

I don't think it is a question of dignity, per se.  If Hillary had to work her way through the ranks with the rest of the candidates, she would be willing to capitulate.

But Hillary's name recognition and early campaigning made her the de facto "winner" in the polls before the primary process even started.  She became overconfident and presumptuous.  Obama basically snatched her defeat from the jaws of victory.

She is in denial that it is even happening.  She cannot accept it until they drag her kicking and screaming from the process.  Unfortunately there is an entire culture of old-style professional politicians that suppor her denial, and she is looking to them as a knight in shining armor to save her from defeat at the 11th hour.

seashell....

Just going by what I have heard Hillary say....
She likes lobbyists
She likes big money donors
She does not ike the 50 state plan
She thinks the Dem Party is perfect the way it is.
She considers Howard and us her opponents.

Therefor she is no friend of mine.

Since neither candidate is going to end the war of bring about a single payer health plan, and all the other issues take second place to our goal of fixing the Party, there will be no meaningful change until we do.

Obama is using the 50 state plan. Not sure he'll ever acknowledge that it is Howard's plan, but one thing at a time.

I don't understand the vitriol against HC.

An odd statement considering it once dripped from your keyboard.

The Clintons are merely reaping as they have sown.

I got sidetracked and saw this in today's editorial page.

"The disappointment of many in BO is not that he is calling on people's hopes, but that he is demeaning them by calling on little more.  Imagine if he had used his political stardom to get a million people to surround the Capitol in protest when the Senate was sanctifying illegal wiretapping."  Niranjan Ramakrishnan

I don't feel he's demeaning his followers, but it would impress me very much if he started right now to use us to affect change....to motivate us beyond hope and into action.  Why not start talking now to our *enemies?*  How about calling for an I/P summit right after he's elected and promising it now?  What about hopping a plane to the troubled ME and meeting with people?  That kind of thing would really impress me.   Of course, he's very busy campaigning and speaking...He should do something totally outta the box... he would grab all the headlines and make HC look puny and unimaginative.  He really is the guy you wanna have a cuppa chocolate with...safe, don't rock the boat, calm.  

I think actions speak much louder than words.  It's that "sticks and stones" thing I grew  up with.

I keep saying,  "Come on, BO, give me something I can get excited about." 

Another editorial talks about how no matter what HC does or wears, she's criticized unmercifully.  She even gets criticized for the clothes she wears.  That's so shortsighted, I can't even address it.  This woman wrote that women are still getting the short end of the stick.

Are people calling her a racist yet?   Or is it still innuendo?  

Susan, 22, I agree.  That said, new polls are showing close races with all of them...

If Hillary had any dignity she would concede.

Actually, if she had any dignity she wouldn't campaign like Karl Rove.

I see nothing wrong with Hillary staying in to accrue as many delegates as possible -- just as we wanted Dean to do in 2004. But she should emulate him, and not Kerry et al, when it comes to poisoning the well. 

But then, as I've said probably too many times, for The Clintons, remaining proprietors of a broken and defeated Democratic Party after November is preferrable to Obama supplanting them as the leader of a victorious one.

(And isn't it funny how The Clintons have promised a clean and civil campaign against McSame?)

re. Tommy Upton.

A fella that uneducated (the spelling errors to numerous to be taken seriously) would no more vote for a woman than he would an african american man.

I'd bet that fella to be more likely a skeered repub.

Methinks some of you protesteth too much.   If he's so wonderful, why do you have to defend him so strongly?  He should stand on his own merits, doncha think?

We all learned what happens when swifboat attacks are left unanswered -- whether they come from a Karl Rove or a Mark Penn.

15.

seashell :-)
Thu, 03/13/08


I'm not baiting you. I asked two very simple questions. I'm just trying to figure out why you think a DLCer is any different than Bush or McCain. Having a D or a R beside a name on a ballot doesn't mean much when the loyalty always lies in the hand(s) that got them there.

As Pat has pointed out both the McCain and Hillary camps have taken money from the same Corporations and Wall Street special interests. They are the same and Hillary's camp is very proud of that fact. It really doesn't matter to those type of funders who wins but they prefer the Republican and want a loss of the Democratic majority in Congress to happen.

It's our (the American people's) turn to win. Not the Corporations or the special interests. McCain and the DLCers just don't get it.

Yes, We Can!

Audrey, you're right.  My problem is that I'm not yet convinced that BO can beat McC...that she might have a better chance.  The two of them together would likely be unstoppable.  I wouldn't mind a BO/HC tickie but I can't quite see her yet agreeing to that.  She may tho........

The polls I saw today were close enuf for the repugs to steal again. 

Maybe Pat is right (and we should run Mickey Mouse).  LOL 

And I'm wondering about who either one will choose as a running mate.  Certainly Sibelius would give me pause.  He needs to start telling us what he has in mind.  Come on, BO, give us something.

puddle, ROFL.   

"Off folks, Must admit, I did get sucked in. "=====

Well, please be careful that your brain doesn't get sucked out. Of course Hillary would be a better choice than McAncient. Hillary would have to go many, many, many steps to the right before you could legitimately or reasonably call her Bush III.

Obama is going to win this primary race but unfortunately it is going to be a long haul. Based on the numbers, if Obama were in Hillary's position now, his campaign managers would be telling him to stay in the race at least through the PA race.

btw, I'd like to see our party go to rotating regional primaries.

off thread but important to post now............baxter has notified the fda and health professionals that a contaminant in heparin, a widely prescribed blood thinner for cardiac patients, is suspected of being responsible for an increase in adverse events.  the u.s. supply can be traced ultimately to rural china, where crude heparin is extracted from pigs' intestines. 

oh, boy, the whole china syndrome again.

"I'm just trying to figure out why you think a DLCer is any different than Bush or McCain."====

Susan, with facts and specificity, please describe how they are the same.

If a Democrat had been President on 9/11/200 we wouldn't be occupying IRAQ now....a DLC Dem or any other Dem. Nor would we be considering bombing Iran.

errors to numerous s/b too numerous.

"The disappointment of many in BO is not that he is calling on people's hopes, but that he is demeaning them by calling on little more.  Imagine if he had used his political stardom to get a million people to surround the Capitol in protest when the Senate was sanctifying illegal wiretapping."  Niranjan Ramakrishnan

"Of many"? How many? Enough people to fill a bar? Where's the poll to back it up? 

Sheer political idiocy. This person is a political knave.

17.

seashell :-)
Thu, 03/13/08


I don't have a problem with being a woman or being a Homemaker.

Susan, you're also right.  You're all right.   I feel hatred for HC  coming on.  LOL

Of course she's DLC and I dislike that.  We'll have to wait and see if BO is going to be able to actually change that.  I think he may fall in line.  I wish I had the hope you all have but I lost it completely when Pelosi took up the gavel.

I hope Gore is leaning hard on BO.

The next prez, due to lack of impeachment proceedings, with have dict a tor powers.  Will he/she give the power back to us?  Taking bets............

Come on, BO.  Say you'll repeal the MCA the first week in office. 

17.

seashell :-)
Thu, 03/13/08

My questions didn't have anything to do with being a female or being a male.

btw, I do know some men who are Homemakers.

I'd like to see our party go to rotating regional primaries.

Better yet, A national primary day with IRV and the winner chosen democratically by the popular vote. Every voter equal in every regard.

The Democratic Party should be democratic. 

Seashell..

Hillary is the one they've been salivating for.

The same grassroots will be working for either one, but if Hillary is the nominee we can count on a lot of the grasroots to drop out.

"I'm just trying to figure out why you think a DLCer is any different than Bush or McCain."====

Susan, with facts and specificity, please describe how they are the same.

I'll field this softball without even needing a glove......

• 2001 Credit Company Law
• Every Child Left Behind
  
• Patriot Crap
• Iraq Disaster

Sitka, it's an editorial comment..his opinion.

Hillary has gotten a lot of votes.  That means a lot of people don't want/like/trust BO.  No mystery here. 

Susan, that was meant as a joke.  When men ask me personal questions, I ask that one right back.  

Actually it goes more like this:

Man:  How old are you?

Me:    How big is it?    (I'm a smartass) or this one:

Man:  How old are you?

Me:    Are you listed in D&B?  or

Me:    How much money do you have?

In my experience, men in other countries don't ask a womans age.  They know better. :-)

 Things got messy in translation and intention.  Altho my income bracket is something I don't post on blogs.  :-)

Hillary is the one they've been salivating for.

That's why every conservative pundit defends her every time a racial attack comes from her campaign.

Better yet, A national primary day with IRV and the winner chosen democratically by the popular vote. =========

Sitka, but then we wouldn't see the candidates for a long enough time....we'd still have these 6-8 people lineups and only one day to decide. hmmmmm.

ok, I have to think about that. Would be an interesting thread topic.

For certain, we need to change our primary system. This whole Mich/Florida thing is really just a symptom of some states feeling left out.

bout a month ago I read an article that said fewer than 40% of voters in Iowa participate in their caucuses.

Someone upthread said something about HC reaping what's she's sown.  Fine.  Now tell me why innocent children have horrible disease s and suffer?  Are they also reaping what they've sown?  Hardly.

We need to re-think that reap/sow thingie. 

Thanks for the heads' up on the eQuality site, Stacy :-) Cool to see Donna Red Wing on the advisory board. I'll read up more on the endorsed candidates and vote before the deadline at the end of the month.

Haven't been able to get a connection for more than 2 minutes at a time the past few days so I may disappear...


12:50 am est

If it's HC vs McC, maybe..just maybe, being a woman and a mother, she wouldn't be as quick to send our young ones off to die.

I could be very wrong.

Let's not kid ourselves.  They are salivating for either one.  McC is not gonna be easy.  And maybe he'll bring ??? on board?  Huck?

33.

*** cChalfonte***
Fri, 03/14/08


It's diffcult to follow but if you know a lot about Wall Street insiders you can see the pattern. I have a freind who trades on the markets. It even took him awhile to figure it out but once he did he starting pushing for Obama to win. The Corporations don't want the war to end. Corporations don't care about the people are who dying.

 Pat, what you're saying is that you'd hand over the country to Bush 3 rather than vote for HC.

My jaw is on the ground.

==================

that's a tough one, sea.  After the dirty fighting I've seen in the last month, I am not sure about this either.  Give a victory to the DLC with Hillary and get locked into the old Dem politics?  Or let the chips fall where they may (not vote) and look to 2012 for hope?  A tough call.

Sitka, it's an editorial comment..his opinion.

To say "the disappointment of many" is to imply a fact. But as you say, it is just an opinion, and a disinforming one at that.

Hillary has gotten a lot of votes.  That means a lot of people don't want/like/trust BO.  No mystery here.

It's idiotic to surmise a reason why many have voted for Hillary is that Obama hasn't organized a million person march on DC.

But I'll concede that they are probably enough nuts out there who feel that way to maybe fill a mental hospital or two.

Happy belated Birthdays to:

Tom Hughes (3/11)
Diane in Northern VA (3/12)

and...

Happy Birthday to LAMom!

12:58 am est

I'll field this softball without even needing a glove......

* 2001 Credit Company Law
* Every Child Left Behind
* Patriot Crap
* Iraq Disaster
============================================

Alone, the 2001 cc law wouldn't make Hill the same as Bushie.
Every child behind was something that Bushie twisted once it was funded. matter of fact, I think on this one, Obama voted for it and Hill did not? Not certain, though.

Patriot Act/Iraq: As I mentioned upthread, no Dem Pres would have responded to 9/11 by invading IRAQ. Just wouldn't have happened.

Patriot Act. Using the "big ear"....I know that a Dem pres would have wanted to use intel as opposed to invasion after the 9/11 attack. We'll never know for certain where a Dem Pres would have drawn the line on this but I believe again, any dem Pres would have drawn it with more respect for personal privacy than Bushie did.

Sitka, a legitimate criticism of many posters on this blog is that they tend to overstate, paint all with one brush.

Robert O. often commented on the similarity between the far right and far left...one of the few things I agreed with him on-just never said it because he beat the point to death here.

It's diffcult to follow but if you know a lot about Wall Street insiders you can see the pattern. I have a freind who trades on the markets. It even took him awhile to figure it out but once he did he starting pushing for Obama to win. The Corporations don't want the war to end. Corporations don't care about the people are who dying.======

I don't know what you're trying to say.

"The Corporations don't want the war to end. Corporations don't care about the people are who dying."

This is an example of gross overstatement and exaggeration and I'm as concerned about the military industrial complex as anyone.

CORRECTION:

I meant:

Alone, the 2001 cc law wouldn't make Hill the same as Bushie.
matter of fact, I think on this one, Obama voted for it and Hill did not? Not certain, though.

It is my recollection that Obama voted with the Repubs on the bankruptcy bill.

"....I know that a Dem pres would h