Howard Dean is first.

Picture for a minute a scene from a crowded Wisconsin bar tonight and as bartender you hear the voices of BFA posters coming to you as snippets of conversation; two people raising their voices one Hillary one Obama on the stools, a quiet table full of old VFW guys "guessing they might vote" for McCain, and one guy says "I like Huckabee"; and another table full of college kids all for Obama and they are picking on this one girl with a Hillary button.

Democracy is alive and well in America, and the people are calling the shots.

I'd shout "Go Bears!" and run like hell.

Denise wrote of Phil "What's up with you this morning?? You're reading into some folks' posts, including mine, stuff that is not what is actually stated."

This morning? This has developed into Phil's new hobby on the blog.

So who did Edwards endorse?

"Yes, we will!"  Kind of catchy, but it seems a little derivative?  How about "Yes, we will, both of you Americas!"?

Obama a disaster for Democrats by Charles Daniel

Promoted Monday, 02/18/08 @ 9:00 am. Published Monday, 02/18/08 @ 1:05 am
-----------

...lol, just think for a minute, what kind of Democracy is it if some person can become a disaster for it?

Correspondingly, the state of this "Democracy" can be evaluated by the degree of the Bush's persona influencing it.

Poor, poor American democracy.
Needs repair (rebuild) URGENTLY!

Phil wrote "So who did Edwards endorse?"

It's too early to tell.  He still has his finger in the air.  

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/02/18/on-the-trail-africans-for-obama/

hey, indie steve...r u here?

12:24 PM EST

So who did Edwards endorse?  

+++

No one yet.  I think Indy (in previous thread) was referring to this:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-campaign19feb19,1,4562528.story?track=rss

12:31 PM EST

http://news.yahoo.com/s/rasmussen/20080218/pl_rasmussen/pennsylvaniageneralelections2008021820080218_1

Pennsylvania: Obama 49% McCain 39%; McCain 44% Clinton 42%

rasmussenreports.com

1 hour, 17 minutes ago

In an early look at potential general election Presidential match-ups in Pennsylvania, Barack Obama leads John McCain while McCain is in a toss-up with Hillary Clinton.

...

A national dance craze in Ivory Coast has spawned a black market in treatments claiming to increase one's bottom size.

The dance in question has been inspired by DJ Mix and DJ Eloh's hit song Bobaraba, which means "big bottom" in the local Djoula language.

"There are women today with large bottoms who are embarrassed, so it's to say don't be ashamed - be comfortable," she says.

The message seems to have been taken on board - so much so that some women are now going in search of a "bobaraba".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7233565.stm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

more from the Wisconsin bar

just don't drink lite beer

Fat bottomed girls make the rockin' world go round~

Miss ya Freddy.....Im off to do some sightseeing in lovely Sonoma County. Might head out to Bodega Bay for breakfast.

Later all :)

David Reiter
Mon, 02/18/08

I am in and out...whazzzup?

Phil:

I was just reading some of your frustrations about these Hillary posts getting posted to the front page, and I thought I'd make you aware of a couple things.

1) Most of the Hillary post-ers are brand new to DFA...everytime I see one, I go to the DFALink page to see how long they have been a member, and what groups they belong to.  Every time so far, they are same day members, or in the case of Charles Danierl, a member of no group at all.  It is obvious to me that these are paid staffers for Hillary joining DFA for the pure purpose of raising support for her, and having surrogates bash Obama.

2) I think DFA features these posts because they feel a pressure to hedge their bets in case Hillary wins.  Sadly so, it also has the effect of igniting the flame beneath our collective asses to be even more adamant against her...so could ultimately be a good thing.

3) Like you pointed out...each of the posts are propaganda based and not fact based, so it has the effect  of appearing like an ill-written post.  In addition, each of the posts have come across looking desperate, which to anyone that actually reads these blogs, can obviously see.

So I say...keep posting these pro-Hallry posts! 

Dave Reiter, where have you been?  People have been moaning here for weeks because they have no idea what Obama's concrete proposals are if elected, and I was giving you plaudits for plubicizing those proposals in exhaustive detail, all for naught. 

What strikes me, in view of these melancholy complaints, is the nebulous unease people express regarding Obama's candidacy.  It's said he lacks experience to be president without reference to the experience of presidents like Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, John Kennedy, Dwight Eisenhower or George Washington.  In fact, there's no analysis of what the proper criteria should be for selecting a candiate with the experinece necessary to be the U.S. President at all. 

If resume candidates are preferred, it seems like the first Bush, Dole, and Nixon would be among the models.

sorry, sorry

Bush is in Africa so I went to the Africa news desk and I couldn't resist

 bbl

Indy Steve
Mon, 02/18/08

I saw your comments/questions when I wrote that post about Obama a few days ago, and never saw you on here again to answer you:-)

The piece I wrote was kind of an answer to these pro-Hillary posts just as much as it was to the media's parroting of the Clinton/McCain talking points about speeches vs. action.   

So to answer your concern about my statement on Hillary's health plan '...comparatively, like legalized extortion..."  I was pointing out how her 'experience'  changed her policy on health care for the worse, not endorsing Obama's health plan...personally, I think they both suck.  But in the context of the article I wrote, I wanted to appear a little one-sided for the sake of the arguement of 'Obama gets specific.'

12:44 PM EST

sorry, sorry

Bush is in Africa

...

+++

Phil -

Yep, shoring up his legacy. Smart Africans read right into his real motives.

You're framing "Bush is in Africa" is just like the much earlier news framing a year or so ago "Rice is in Asia" -- of course it is (on both counts) ! [smile] 

Phil Specht
Mon, 02/18/08

You forgot a bunch of Edwards supporters in the corner grousing about how a bunch of farmers in Iowa eliminated the best candidate of the three! ;'-)

over a quarter of Iowa Democrats were for Hillary, and I'm pretty sure few have changed their minds since then, so I would kind of take that as a baseline among democrats nationwide

there have to be  a few legit DFA Hillary backers

come make her case I say

and if you aren't any more articulate than Mr. Daniel good luck 

David Reiter
Mon, 02/18/08

Thanks for responding. Your posts are intelligent and well-written, and help stimulate discussion. I still disagree on the health care plans, because I think even Obama will have to require that people pay. No free riders. And he does....if you seek health care and aren't insured, my understanding is under Obama's plan you have to sign up and pay back premiums.

That's just a back-door mandate. Why not have it up front and transparent?

Tom Bearse
Mon, 02/18/08

Hey, there.  I had no idea you were giving me 'plaudits,' --thanks. I have been working too much, so not able to write/read as much lately.  I actually got President's day off...my boss tried to pull a fast one on me and make me work today:-)

From what I have seen, Obama actually has more details than any of the candidates about future plans.  The problem is that you cannot really get deep details into an inspiratuional speech, and Hillary is trying to use that reality against him. On Iraq and foreign policy, especially, Obama goes further and into more detail than Hillary...Hillary just says she will rely on her advisers and has no concrete plan.  How people can say that she is better on foreign policy is beyond me...it is a just a statement without any supporting fact...and I mean ANY supporting fact.

Indy Steve
Mon, 02/18/08

Personally, I like the idea of a social security type of universal health care...it would create an insurance pool of 300million people, lower overall costs, and insurers (if we have to support their 'private enterprise') can still participate by bidding on portions of the insurance pool.  There would be no advertising, no decisions in the name of profit, and companies can finally subsidize the government for a change:-) (not really)

Ron wrote "And what of Senator Obama, there was no Senator Obama.  State legislatures don't decide military matters.  He can say how he would have voted.  It is a mere hypothetical exercise. So I look at what each says about what we do now, not much space between them, with a lot a skepticism."

Intriguing.  However, this approach fails to account for the fact that Obama spoke out against the war vote as it approached, when fellow office seeker Howard Dean did, and when another non-senator, Al Gore did.  They don't decide military matters, either, but they took stands which weren't particularly popular at the time, if you'll recall. 

I can appreciate your skepticism, but I'm left to puzzle over your sanguine attitude towards a candidate who cast a vote for authorization with no apparent remorse, other than that Bush didn't handle things in a way that helped to boost her presidential aspirations.  On the basis of what you describe as a hypothetical exercise, are you more content with Clinton's sense of judgment on important matters, affecting life and death, than Obama's?

David Reiter
Mon, 02/18/08

Agreed.....Health Security Act of 2009. paid for by taxpayers, businesses and individuals. Everyone covered. Everyone pays in and everyone receives benefits they can see. Funds preventive care and mental health on par with physical health. Drugs included... eliminate Medicaid and Medicare because eveyone's covered. Noone dies due to lack of health care.

We have a dream......

Tom B. You thought it significant "enough" that you brought to the attention of this blog that LindaNM blogs at MyDD as well. When she mentioned that she has done so for a long time, you mentioned that "you" hadn't noticed her posts there but had noticed them at KOS for a very long time. Who cares what you notice or don't....THAT was my point.

Dragging in your irrelevant note about LindaNM's blogging places couched in a reference to myself and jc is what is WEIRD. I commented on that. Nothing paranoid about it...

Of course, you're the same guy who waxed on in several posts about blogger nicknames, i.e., paine for Imn2Paine, cC for Cchalfonte, etc. Went on post after post.

I guess I'll just chalk you off to a windbag with a penchant for triviality.

oh, and good morning, all:)


more geese bites.

Indy Steve
Mon, 02/18/08

Maybe if we change the name from Health Security Act of 2009 to the National Patriotic Safety and Security Act we could actually get it passed LOL

cC "Who cares what you notice or don't....THAT was my point."

Thanks for clearing that up.

David Reiter
Mon, 02/18/08

Good one....LOL... that's a small compromise I wouldn't mind making. OR...

Protect America Act from Terrorists, Disease and other goblins Health Act of 2009.

And please, let's drop "single payer" from the lingo. We all pay for it. So it really isn't "single payer" which is a stupid, meaningless phrase that provides the wrong frame.

Now that's a bill the Republicans can support :-)

Hey Phil, I may have  posted this on another thread but I am now working on getting delegates to our 3rd district convention and the state convention. I don't know if we even have the required delegates on our committee.

It will be interesting tho'.

I'm enjoying being the hog the bottom of the blog poster today.

Every so often someone gets all their posts at the bottom! It's my turn today for some unknown reason. And I'm going to take advantage of it!

cc, I agree. Tom has a,,,unique....sense of humor. He also likes to bring up posts from four years ago and try to make them look contradictory when they're not. But hey, my views change with the times.

Indy wrote "Tom has a,,,unique....sense of humor."

In case anyone cares or doesn't think it's trivial, Phil brought up women with large bottoms.  Maybe his view has changed from four years ago.  I'm not sure.

Now that's a bill the Republicans can support :-)
David Reiter
Mon, 02/18/08

Especially if they don't read it like Dems failed to do on the Patriot Act! LOL.

OK, here's today's challenge. Come up with the best name for Health care act that will get even the most ardent opponents to support it. Dave R. and I have already submitted....

Dave Reiter - National Patriotic Safety and Security Act

IndySteve - Protect America from Terrorists, Disease and other goblins Health Act of 2009.

OTHERS? I'll post em on the bottom since I have blog bottom rights today, it seems!

the Obama bandwagon effect ends if she wins Ohio and Texas.

That would depend on her margins and delegate totals.

After boasting huge leads, it would be a loss if she just squeaks to win in those states.

And I posted a scenorio a few days ago where she could actually win Texas but lose in delegate apportionment.

Call to arms for Obamanables...................hee gads, this sounds dangerous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Indy Steve
Mon, 02/18/08
__________________________________________________________________________

Thomas is just mad since his team lost their 6th ina row yesterday.............

What is it about the pleasure of name calling?  Must be part of the reptillian brain, sort of a monkey bray

Tanzania Welcomes Bush, but Obama Is Topic No. 1 on the Streets

...Outside of town, at the Mwenge Village market, Theresa Maridadi, 62, was seated with a newspaper in her lap, debating the Democrats with her son, Lucas Kahtoza, who lit up at the mention of Mr. Obama’s name and put his hand to his chest.

“Remember, Obama is from Africa,” he said. “From my heart, it is good.”

His mother cut him off. “Why you want to like Obama because he come from Africa?” she demanded. She is for Mrs. Clinton: “Her husband was the president, she has more exposure. She’s mature, she’s a woman. It’s good for a woman to lead that country.”...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/18/world/...

1:46 PM EST

...

If things go badly for Obama on March 19; we never get to turn back the clock to "what might have been." There are no do-overs here. But it is still March 18 and we can still make a huge difference. Please, if you can on Monday, make phone calls to Wisconsin and Hawaii.

...

+++

john nelson -

I just noticed in your post  "Call to Arms for Obama Supporters! We May Never Have This Chance Again!" that you typed in March 19, and March 18 when should be February 19, and February 18 instead.

1. Health care - the problem w/ going to a single payer 'medicare for all' plan right away is all the people currently employed by the insurance companies -- the coders, the billing clerks, all the employees of the insurance companies themselves -- they are Americans like us and need to eat and feed their families. Back a few threads ago there was something about Obama giving the health care industry a 'seat at the table.' Yes, he would give them a seat at the table to help resolve this issue.

2. Did I mention how I hated Why We Fight? It was a great movie. I'll recommend it to my students. It rings very true to me. I hated every minute of it. Maybe b/c I owe quite a bit myself to a defense contractor (401K, pension, computer training, etc, etc).

3. I heard something disquieting on Wash Journal this morning. A caller was commenting on the time delay and Steve Sculley said 'it shouldn't be more than a few seconds' -- I sincerely hope he was just talking about delay time in transmission and not about a censoring time delay like the other networks use. I've written them and hope to get a response. I know Brian Lamb was very against any sort of censoring time delay on C-SPAN.

4. Front threads -- the front threads we are getting are our own damned fault. Phil is right we should go read them all and recommend the good ones. We should also write some of our own, well researched diaries. Sheri Divers used to right great posts and personally I was just looking for the 'social hour' and just skimmed them -- her talent was wasted on me, quite frankly.

45.

Pat in Colorado
Mon, 02/18/08

Reply to this
What is it about the pleasure of name calling? Must be part of the reptillian brain, sort of a monkey bray
======================

"A quick wit is often accompanied by an empty head"
-Ben Franklin

38. Annilow -- Sheri Divers used to right s/b Sheir Divers used to write

"However, this approach fails to account for the fact that Obama spoke out against the war vote as it approached, when fellow office seeker Howard Dean did, and when another non-senator, Al Gore did.  They don't decide military matters, either, but they took stands which weren't particularly popular at the time, if you'll recall." 

I think the first I heard of anyone named Barack Obama was from DFA supporting him for Senator from Illinois.  Then there was the 2004 Convention.  So my earlier blog entry crediting Obama with 5 years US Senate service was in error.  My bad.

He has been there only three years, less experience, less responsibility for the present state of affairs, still there in time to vote for Dick Cheney's fossil fuels now and forever energy plan. 

Your point on Gore and Dean is true.  Each of them called it right at the time and were putting something on the line by doing so.  I wouldn't put Obama's state speech into such lofty territory.   What was he risking?  The Illinois GOP had to import Alan Keyes just to have someone on the ballot against him.

"I'm left to puzzle over your sanguine attitude towards a candidate who cast a vote for authorization with no apparent remorse, other than that Bush didn't handle things in a way that helped to boost her presidential aspirations.  On the basis of what you describe as a hypothetical exercise, are you more content with Clinton's sense of judgment on important matters, affecting life and death, than Obama's?"

"Sanquine" and "content" do not capture the way I feel in choosing between the two.  I am persuadable by "resumes."  Gore's is far and away the resume for the job opening in 2009.
Richardson's was the most impressive among those in the early primaries.

My vote went to Hillary, so that is the decisive answer to your question.
The choice for pending primary voters is a lot closer than what the preponderance of DFA blog entries would indicate.  It isn't a slam dunk for Obama.

Mike wrote "Thomas is just mad since his team lost their 6th ina row yesterday."

Typical Hurricaniac remark.  If you were paying more attention, you'd realize I'm a windbag with a unique sense of humor, noticing things no one cares about.

39.

Annilow
Mon, 02/18/08

Reply to this
38. Annilow -- Sheri Divers used to right s/b Sheir Divers used to write
================
I give up.

Of course with all those interns supposedly working at DFA, seems like at least one would enjoy the opportunity to write and publish their own political musings?

Oh well, noone wants to play today?

OK, here's today's challenge. Come up with the best name for Health care act that will get even the most ardent opponents to support it. Dave R. and I have already submitted....

Dave Reiter - National Patriotic Safety and Security Act

IndySteve - Protect America from Terrorists, Disease and other goblins Health Act of 2009.

OTHERS? I'll post em on the bottom since I have blog bottom rights today, it seems!

Ron wrote "The choice for pending primary voters is a lot closer than what the preponderance of DFA blog entries would indicate.  It isn't a slam dunk for Obama."

I agree completely.  The animus against both candidates throughout the gamut of internet sites is caustic and widespread. 

One reason the selection can't be regarded as a slam dunk for Obama, however, is that Clinton's authorization vote has slid off the radar of some Democratic voters.  You never expressed the slightest reservation about this vote in your response to my question, just as an example.

"A quick wit is often accompanied by an empty head"
-Ben Franklin

Ben had a quick wit but surely NOT an empty head.

So the former does not signify the latter.

Indy wrote "Come up with the best name for Health care act that will get even the most ardent opponents to support it."

Single Beneficiary Healthcare Act.

I can only think such hatred and spite comes from that reptillian brain, and it can't be eradicated.  But, it's dangerous because it's utterly vicious, and we have to counteract it.

So, any doubts now about the nastiness out there?

"Finally, racism is part of the reptillian brain, when we were probably rabbit sized and had to band together in clans. Endogamy (marrying within the clan family) kept us all looking alike. We feared anyone who was different would hurt us.  

I can only think such hatred and spite comes from that reptillian brain, and it can't be eradicated.  But, it's dangerous because it's utterly vicious, and we have to counteract it.

So, any doubts now about the nastiness out there?"

Pat:

Obviously  this was directed at me, as usual.   You have very erroneous ideas about who I am...which is maybe why you are so defensive about BO.  You don't seem to be able to see either one of us clearly ...he can do no wrong  and you can't see me w/o severe judgment and criticism.   

You have claimed to like JE, yet said nothing to Sitka when he based him mercilessly.  You keep mum when Linda NM posts less than glowing things about BO.  You tolerate Huron's jibes and jabs...yet I post a parody and photo and you go ballistic.

This is a place for free speech and differing ideas, as Phil said.  Dark humor (no pun intended) is also expressed, as is dismay, skepticism, opinions.  I believe you would like to shut down all discourse that doesn't agree with you....especially when it comes to me.  Your anger at me is displaced, Pat.  Trust me on that  if you can.

***************************************** 

BO would make a very good VP.   Hillary has some fine qualities but her Ky-Lib. vote troubles me.  She needs to recant and even then, I don't think I could trust that she's truly sorry.  Today my thought is that I will sit out the primary and vote for the dem nominee, like it or not.

No bandwagons for me.  I don't believe either one is going to change things much...a bandaid here and there, a continuation of ME war, more power for the multi-nationals and endless conflict and death around the I/P horror.  I prefer BO, in a very luke-warm way.

 We had good people in the beginning.  So sad.

And now, back to free speech hopefully. 

What is it about the pleasure of name calling?  Must be part of the reptillian brain, sort of a monkey bray  

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Pat,

IF Obama get thru to the finals, I really feel for you guys..........most havent been able to take even the most miniscule of criticism of him on the blog, many times in good humour......wait till the Republicans and right wingers enter the fray................prepare for the worst.............