The Deans, DFA and DFA Grassroots and Netroots are first!

Jessica thank you -- I'm giving it some serious consideration.

3:23 PM EST

in Clinton Country:

http://www.kansascity.com/445/story/484888.html

Posted on Mon, Feb. 11, 2008 01:54 PM

Poll: Clinton leads in Rhode Island

...

THE NUMBERS

Hillary Rodham Clinton, 36 percent

Barack Obama, 28 percent

Uncommitted, 27 percent

Undecided, 9 percent

---

OF INTEREST

Clinton continues to lead in the Ocean State, although Obama is gaining ground. The same poll in September showed 35 percent of likely voters supporting Clinton, while 16 percent supported Obama. Uncommitted is a ballot option for Rhode Island voters.

...

3:27 PM EST

http://news.aol.com/political-machine/straw-poll/

Phil, forwarding the payroll taxes are a mandate on the employer, a condition of engaging in commerce and enjoying the protections of things like the patent office and the courts.  That a portion is being paid by the employee is sort of a fiction that permits the federal government to collect an income tax on a larger amount.  The employee pays a percentage of income tax on the payroll share assessed to him; the employer does not, but rather deducts that as an expense.  Now that a portion of SS retirement benefits are taxed if the person earns over a certain amount, there's an argument that there's double taxation here--you pay tax when the money gets put in on your behalf and then you pay another tax when it comes out.

I'm ticket number 198 for Deanfest as it is unlikely I'll be elected an Obama delegate since I was an Edwards supporter unless we caucus together first to get the fair share won Jan 3rd then I will be like I am now to the next level here a former Edwards supporter now with Obama. (that's not so hard seashell, we only have two choices)

In the unlikely event I go to Denver I'll give my Deanfest scholarship on the basis of need.

That a portion is being paid by the employee is sort of a fiction that permits the federal government to collect an income tax on a larger amount.  The employee pays a percentage of income tax on the payroll share assessed to him; the employer does not, but rather deducts that as an expense.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Monica I pay my employees share for them rather than set up some kind of 401K, and saving them the tax on the tax. I do feel it is the duty of an employer to contribute to an employee's retirement; part of the social contract I remit a couple of thousand dollars a month so understand how it works quite well. lol

Authenticity: This is solely my opinion but I think Clinton has a real authenticity problem. Today she said she isn't worried about momentum. On 60 Minutes when asked by Couric if she thinks about losing she commented that she never even thinks about losing. Give me a break. I'd like her a whole lot more if she'd be a *normal* person and not so scripted. When my daughter interviewed with Ivy League schools -- the comments back to her were that she was authentic and not trying to just give them what they wanted to hear.

hmm, forgot that d fest conflicts with the convention. we have not picked our delegates yet, will in april to the state conv then in may to the national. we shall see.

Nearly 100K Indie votes in LA won't be counted.

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Up_to_100K...

Yes, I know you know, Phil, but sometimes it's nice to have a hook for what to many is an esoteric topic. LOL

Blog still shifting things around.  4:04 PM est 

Nearly 100K Indie votes in LA won't be counted.

Should be called the Disenfranchisement Party. 

Jessica Falker
Mon, 02/11/08

Jessica,

Thanks for answering my questions on DFEST last thread. I knew there were lots of considerations, just wanted to get them out there. The venue sounds great; hope you won't have trouble finding people in town to speak (politicians get out of dodge in August!).

5.

linda b
Mon, 02/11/08

hmm, forgot that d fest conflicts with the convention

***************************

DemocracyFest is August 16-17. The DNC Convention is August 25-28. Just wanted to make sure people know it's not the same date.

I would have preferred Demfest on Aug. 22-24 in or near Denver (Boulder or in the mountains at a ski resort which is a beautiful place) which would have combined nature, Democracy and the convention. And think of the talent/expertise you could have drawn on since many will be there by then.

Oh well, that's just my preference. DC is good.

Clinton dismisses Obama's caucus wins *dominated by party activists* and LA because of the black votes. Yes, well, at my caucus the people voting for Obama could hardly be called party activists. We had two women over 90 in my precinct and four Republicans and some more Indies - hardly elite activists. I would say we Obama supporters were very positive about our choice.

Whoops - here's the link of Clinton's comments

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2...

Denise, I would have signed your petition, which is worthy, but changed my mind after the snarky comment you made to Audrey....and others.

******************************** 

The Democratic Party is going to be facing a lot worst than that video if Hillary their nominee.

The democratic party is going to be facing a lot worse than that video if BO is their nominee. 

Just for fun or whatever, here's a little of Todd Beeton's firsthand report of the Obama rally in College Park today from myDD:

"I raced down to College Park to hit the first of two rallies Barack Obama is holding here in Maryland today. This one's at the Comcast Center and, well, let's just say it seats 18,000 and this place is full. I've actually never seen anything like this, as far as political events go. I was a bit lost wandering the arena before I found the press entrance and was up in the nosebleed sections and got a view of the place from the top and it was pretty breathtaking; you expect this from a U2 concert. By the way, more than 2 hours after 'doors opened' they're still letting people in, the guards shouting to people 'Come on, you can still make it, Yes you can!' Pretty funny.

" . . . .

"Obama entered to a thunderous roar of the crowd, as you might expect. This crowd is so excited, faces beaming. Obama had to tell everyone they could sit down and relax.

" . . . .

"'What I'm most excited about the crowds we get is the young people who keep turning out.' Place goes nuts. 'The pundits said "oh Howard Dean did that but they never vote."' He then talked about how college students came out in droves for him in Iowa and the place roared. His line about George Bush not being on the ballot got a huge response too. I don't think I've ever seen Obama this comfortable at one of these rallies. He's improvising and the crowd is right there with him."

" . . . .

"The thing about Obama lately is that he's not so much giving a speech as he is having a conversation with the people in the stands. He's wrapping up: 'And I'm talking particularly to the young people in the audience, this is our moment, this is our time. If you stand with me, if you vote for me tomorrow, we will not only win Maryland, we will win the Democratic nomination, we will win the general election, we will together go forward and change this country and change the world.' Place goes nuts. He was definitely on today. A very very confident candidate."

13

Fine with me if you think calling someone a racist and never apologizing for it is OK in your book. It happened about a month ago, and I even wrote to her on her DFA link account to set things right. Not a word from her.

And it's not my petition, seashell. It's for the good of the country.

Why do people think anything they do for the sake of democracy is for someone, personally? How silly!

seashell wrote "Denise, I would have signed your petition, which is worthy, but changed my mind after the snarky comment you made . . ."

Good reason.  The Dean coalition is officially dead.

Democratic insiders agree that Al Gore is the ultimate prize among uncommitted superdelegates, and Clintonistas well understand a Barack Obama endorsement by Bill Clinton's veep would be a huge blow to Hillary.

They're hoping Gore will stay on the sidelines, but shudder over reports Obama has been courting Prince Albert for months.

They also believe that Gore must be sorely tempted to stick it to the Clintons, whom he blames in large part for his defeat in 2000.

"The level of animus between them is unbelievable," a well-placed Hillary partisan confided.

A prominent Democratic strategist with close ties to both camps echoes: "The Clintons and the Gores can't stand each other."

A look at the origin of "si, se puede," which BO has co-opted and not ever given credit to.  He's quite fond of taking credit for ideas, quotes and slogans that are not his.  I wonder who is really is.

Phil, I have 3 choices, should I vote at all in the primary. 

************************** 

An April 11, 2006, Washington Post article with the headline "The Enduring Motto of a Movement" noted:

[The slogan's] origins lie with the Hispanic farmworker labor movement. In 1972, César Chávez, a United Farm Workers of America co-founder and Mexican American labor leader, embarked on a 25-day fast to protest Arizona's anti-farmworker labor laws. When supporters began to doubt that the laws could be changed, UFW co-founder Dolores Huerta, also Mexican American, responded, "Sí se puede."

Chávez adopted the slogan, as did the UFW, which still uses it. According to the UFW's Web site, www.ufw.org, the "sí se puede attitude" is one of the group's core values. The organization defines it as the "embodiment of a personal and organizational spirit that promotes confidence, courage and risk taking."

http://mediamatters.org/items/200801160010 

"and not ever given credit to." ....to  my knowledge.  Perhaps s/o here has heard him give credit to the farm workers as well as the Hopi and can bring us a quote.

The comment shifting makes it too hard to follow conversations here. I'll stick around for the rest of this thread, but if people ever want to find me, I usually hang out at www.howardempowered.com (HEP).

Clinton dismisses Obama's caucus wins *dominated by party activists*

If that is true it means the Clintons are in really big trouble since party people are who they've counted on for support. 

26. LOL, I would hardly say so ;-)

5:02 pm est

It's not dead for most of us Tom, though I'm not sure what you actually meant by that...LOL.

5 Debbie or Dan Downers don't bust up a coalition that strong. Nor do the Paranoid Patties. Or the fearful Frannies.

 Stat Man quoted from a New York Daily News story that "A prominent Democratic strategist with close ties to both camps echoes: 'The Clintons and the Gores can't stand each other.'"

This is new reporting on an old story.   Here is John Heilemann on the subject in New York magazine almost 2 years ago, speculating on whether Gore would run to displace the party front runner, Sen. Clinton:

"Gore’s relationship with Hillary has long been the subject of close study by those in their respective orbits. But few of the extant theories involve the concept of bonhomie. 'He intensely dislikes her,' says one former Gore adjutant. 'It all goes back to 1993 and 1994, when there were two vice-presidents: Al Gore and Hillary Clinton. They fought for turf, for resources, for projects. It was almost like a sibling rivalry over who was the second-most-important person in the White House. Second, they’re highly similar people. They’re very intellectual, very moralistic, very black-and-white—whereas President Clinton’s view was "You’re my enemy today, you’re my friend tomorrow. You fuck up today, you’re going to save the day tomorrow. I want to get along with everybody." And third, when Gore-istas say, "We think Clinton was a negative for Gore in 2000," high on that list is Mrs. Clinton’s running for Senate in 2000—so instead of her and the president being seen as a fading force and letting Gore emerge, it was the Clinton dynasty being seen as an ever-present force in American politics.'"

Hey Thankful are you still in Chicago??

Hi Thankful! Have you been able to access your email yet? It may take you a whole day just to read the emails from me. LOL.

Hey Denise ~ took me a few to find your comment, sheesh!

Yep, waiting for a clear driving day. Looks like Thurs. maybe.

5:14 pm est

OK be safe out there sunshine! I owe you a phone call.

Tonight I have to go to the local university to check out their evening degree program - I think it's time to finish it up, finally. Then I can retire LOL

I can't get into email most of the time I get a little connection. will have to brave the very cold weather and get to the library. I did see the list yesterday, but nothing would actually open. Krezzy. 5:17 pm est

From the previous thread.

57.

Indy Steve
Mon, 02/11/08


You're welcome to read my profile at the DFA-Link anytime.

I wasn't much for blogging until recently. I'm not very good at writing but I sure do like to read. I read everything. Mostly I like to study belief structures. Politics is full of them. Some of them are fascinating.

Denise wrote "It's not dead for most of us Tom, though I'm not sure what you actually meant by that...LOL."

Very simply, this: When Obama invokes Dean's name in his address to the huge crowds of people coming to hear them, he is reminding them of what Dean began.  The underdog, asterisk candidate, breaking onto the political scene; the attacks at the party gates, disgusted at the craven capitulation of the Democratic establishment to Bush's war plans; the rallying cry to young people; the vibrant internet presence, turning almost overnight into a huge fundraising machine; record breaking appearances before crowds of 10, 15, 20,000 people; the call to independents and disaffected moderates who had given up on the partisan rancor in Washington, giving them a reason to finally vote; all of it.

There's an Obama coalition now.  Here, the divisions are bitter, small, and myopic.  After Dean left, rigor mortis set in on the movement.  It took a long time, but the fault lines have finally sheared.

Has anybody been watching C-SPAN today? The Senate presented several new amendments to FISA. Dodd and Feingold were very good.

 Here, the divisions are bitter, small, and myopic.  After Dean left, rigor mortis set in on the movement.  It took a long time, but the fault lines have finally sheared.

~~~~~~~~~

150,000 took part in the pulse poll, hardly a small group 400 plus active meetup groups too, and I see the same divisions on the blog I have seen in Democratic politics for four decades, if you can kind of lump the norml libertarians of past decades with the current Ron Paul crowd.

I just don't see the shearing, but keep trying. If I were paid by Clinton I would sure want to try to kill it too. lol

Ahhh.....I see now Tom. Well the majority of us still have that Dean feeling. I know I do. Thanks for pointing out the similarities between the Obama campaign and Dean's, though there are some differences, as you know.

Let the bitter be bitter. Those of us that "get" elections and know that none of us are going to get everything we want (collective "we") won't be disappointed.

I'm just glad that Bush won't be around much longer. That we can all agree on!

Obama's large crowds and satisfying wins make up for the jeers of our supposed naivety and imminent buyer's remorse.

Tom, I beg to differ... Dean people are *everywhere*. Many got involved in politics for the first time and *stayed* involved. We may argue but it is what we have in common that transcends our differences. Sure there are divisions here, there always has been, but bigger than that, is the fact that what Howard started has continued and that many victories have been won. Fault lines, a few rumbles, whatever ~ to say there's oceanfront property in AZ is plain krezzy.

5:33 pm est

"Now that a portion of SS retirement benefits are taxed if the person earns over a certain amount, there's an argument that there's double taxation here--you pay tax when the money gets put in on your behalf and then you pay another tax when it comes out"

It's not an argument it is a fact.  They are taxing you on the payments they are making to you from the taxes they collected from you in the first place.  Who came up with this system anyway??

Chelsea drew 150 college students at her stops in Milwaukee today. She is out stumping for her mom, but sounded pretty defensive answering questions about her mothers war vote. (what I heard of it on WPR). But I give her credit for trying.

Phil wrote "If I were paid by Clinton I would sure want to try to kill it too. lol"

That's kind of ignorant, but setting it aside for the moment, there are, after all, Clinton supporters here.  Gore, the person who, as we've learned, hates Hillary Clinton,supported Dean on his ascent to take the reins of the Democrat Party from the Clintons.  The Clintons then set Clark on Dean in a counter move.  After the push for Gore candidacy dies a natural death, some supporters opt for Clinton or Dean's other political antagonist, John Edwards. 

You were one. In fact, you were a one-time supporter of DLC president Vilsack's campaign.  Not to ratify it but, employing your logic, were you paid to kill the Dean coalition?

38.

Tom Bearse
Mon, 02/11/08


I think that it's Obama who is apart of the Dean coalition. He quoted Gov. Dean in the last speech that I heard him deliver. Gov. Dean won the DNC Chair by building a coalition around the 50 state strategy. It's obvious to me the Clintons never liked the 50 strategy because they only built their campaign in those states where they were built it in the past. If Hillary wins the nomination you can count on them recoiling back into their old way of doing things very quickly. I don't care how many pledges were signed. Camp Hillary didn't keep their promises in Florida when they claimed she had won the state. Which was and is a ridiculously absurd and totally arrogant assumption for the Hillary camp to be making. It's all rather embarrassing when you think about it and down right shameful.

 Dean's other political antagonist, John Edwards

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

since you have a half dozen untruths in one post lets start with that one

Howard Dean and John Edwards have gotten along well for years. and I see no evidence that Al Gore "hates" anyone

my support for Tom Vilsack as a really decent human who would make an excellent President is true through

haven't followed him to Clinton though

Iowa Gets Funding to Reduce Unintended Pregnancies: Former Iowa first lady Christie Vilsack launched a statewide project called "Iowa Initiative to Reduce Unintended Pregnancies" that will focus on women ages 18 to 30. "As a woman, as a teacher, as a mother, I believe we have a responsibility to give all women in our state the knowledge and the means to prevent unintended pregnancies," she said. From the Des Moines Register:

The Senate is playing a death march while they're waiting for the Senators to gather for a vote on FISA. I wonder who gets to choose their music.

Phil wrote "Howard Dean and John Edwards have gotten along well for years. and I see no evidence that Al Gore 'hates' anyone."

That makes one person who doesn't.

Rep. Charlie Gonzalez of TX to endorse Obama.  He is the son of Henry B. Gonzalez, who was a big time civil rights leader of hispanic voters in TX.   I believe he was called voice of the people.  I hope this helps Obama in TX.

Tom.....

You're not going to drag out those old cut and paste things by Josh somebody who disses Dean from one end to the other. You seemed to enjoy them so much.

Howard Dean in '12, or '08 in case of a turn of events.

audrey wrote "You're not going to drag out those old cut and paste things by Josh somebody who disses Dean from one end to the other. You seemed to enjoy them so much."

I think they're libelous trash.  Have you read what he had to say about Sen. Obama?

  Gore, the person who, as we've learned, hates Hillary Clinton

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have never seen evidence by anyone this is true, that is stretching an "office politics" rivalry from a decade ago way too far. Gore isn't the "hating" type anyway. you might be gullible enough to believe a Republican slanted rovian rumor as true but I am not. Gore's politics is closer to Deans and that endorsement was a natural, and had nothing to do with Wes Clark.

Tom you are just packaging a bunch of negative gossip and calling it true and I'm not buying it anymore than what Martha posted as coming from Obama

Phil wrote "Tom you are just packaging a bunch of negative gossip and calling it true and I'm not buying it anymore than what Martha posted as coming from Obama."

Well, "hate" may be a little strong.  I should have said they "can't stand each other" and that Gore "intensely dislikes her."

I have seen several posts on other blogs about Clinton not paying the bill for offices they have rented.  Didn't think much of it.  Thought maybe it was bookkeeping errors or something.  But I'm beginning to wonder.  Here is a clip of a guy who has been trying to collect cleaning charges for offices back in Iowa.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/3677250#23114259

19.

seashell :-)
Mon, 02/11/08


All the progressive politicans say Yes We Can in California. Senator Boxer says it all the time. It rallies everybody to any progressive social justice cause.

Awesome Phil ~ Iowa is way down on the lists when it comes to responsible sex ed. Eliminating any abstinence-only program is a huge step forward. From the Illinois Campaign for Responsible Sex Education
http://www.responsiblesexed.org/il/respo...

* 50% of new HIV infections occur in people under 25
* 40% of Illinois' new Chlamydia and gonorrhea cases are among youth aged 10 to 19
* nearly 18,000 births occur each year to girls aged 19 and younger

It's clear that abstinence-only programs aren't working. Comprehensive sex ed programs - that combine an abstinence message with the facts about birth control and STDs - are proven to delay sexual activity and prevent disease."

6:25 pm est

Screw abstinence only programs!

Sorry it slipped out.

Ummm.....I better stop now

Well Tom I "dislike" people putting down Howard Dean and his post Presidential effort while doing it on his blog, but sometimes I just let it go unremarked, othertimes not, but I have had enough personal interactions with Al Gore to know he is just not the "hating" type, but like me and my "dislikes" I'm sure he has some too. I'm pretty sure "intensely dislikess" too strong also.

45.

Susan Rowe
Mon, 02/11/08


p.s. I've even heard Gov. Dean use Sí se puede, Yes We Can. It is used often. There is nothing co-opted about it. All the unions use it too. It's sort of like saying You Have the Power, Taking Back Our Country or Dean is first!

Phil wrote "I have had enough personal interactions with Al Gore to know he is just not the 'hating' type, . . ."

That forces me to decide if you know him better than a prominent Democratic strategist with close ties to both camps and a former Gore adjutant.

According to the Clinton camp.

UT doesn't count because there are not enough Dems there - it's a red state, Maine doesn't count because it is a small state, DC won't count there are too many black people there, WA doesn't count because it was a caucas and it is activists who caucas (also people who caucas don't have jobs, the people who would have voted for her are  working people and can't get off work), Alaska doesn't count for the same reason as UT, Illinois doesn't count, Obama is a Senator there (even though HRC was born there), but Hawaii won't count because Obama was born there, Missouri doesn't count because it borders Illinois, Kansas doesn't count Obama has roots there.