Mmmm...............no............not today...........

on, Obama, Insurance

By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: February 4, 2008

But as I’ve tried to explain in previous columns, there really is a big difference between the candidates’ approaches. And new research, just released, confirms what I’ve been saying: the difference between the plans could well be the difference between achieving universal health coverage — a key progressive goal — and falling far short.

Specifically, new estimates say that a plan resembling Mrs. Clinton’s would cover almost twice as many of those now uninsured as a plan resembling Mr. Obama’s — at only slightly higher cost.

Let’s talk about how the plans compare.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/04/opinio...


February 1, 2008, 10:58 am
Obama does Harry and Louise, again

The Obama campaign sends out an ugly mailer. Sorry, but this is just destructive — like the Obama plan, the Clinton plan offers subsidies to lower-income families. And BO himself has conceded that he might have to penalize people who don’t buy insurance until they need care. So this is just poisoning the well for health care reform. The politics of hope, indeed.

Update: Ezra Klein adds a screenshot of the original Harry and Louise ad — they’ve obviously deliberately copied it. Just to remind everyone, Harry and Louise were the center of the vile smear campaign the insurance lobby waged against health care reform in 1993 — and this time a Democratic candidate is doing the smearing for them.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02...+Krugman&st=nyt

Linda quoted from Paul Krugman, who wrote "But as I’ve tried to explain in previous columns, there really is a big difference between the candidates’ approaches."

What was your opinion of Howard Dean's plans for health care coverage?

What was your opinion of Howard Dean's plans for health care coverage?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

and that matters now,why?

is he about to jump in?

wOOt!!!!

Howard Dean is first.

Howard Dean is FIRST!

If you need attack ads to make your argument (Harry and Louise II) you hace conceded the case on its merit.

we can do better than that

Hillary voted against a ban on cluster bombs

Obama voted for the ban:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-rees/clinton-obama-and-clust_b_84811.html

Posted February 4, 2008 | 10:51 AM (EST)

If you're a friend of mine, or a fan of "Get Your War On," you probably know how important the issue of cluster bombs and landmines is to me.

It was America's use of cluster bombs during Operation: Enduring Freedom that led me to start GYWO seven(!) years ago this fall

...

Over 150 nations have signed the 1997 Mine Ban Treaty. It pains me that our great nation has not. But in the autumn of 2006, there was a chance to take a step in the right direction: Senate Amendment No. 4882, an amendment to a Pentagon appropriations bill that would have banned the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas.

Senator Obama of Illinois voted IN FAVOR of the ban.

Senator Clinton of New York voted AGAINST the ban.

Analysts say Clinton did want to risk appearing "soft on terror," as it would have harmed her electibility.

I'm not a single-issue voter. But as Obama and Clinton share many policy positions, this vote was revelatory for me. After all, Amendment No. 4882 was an easy one to vote against: Who'd want to risk accusation of "tying the hands of the Pentagon" during a never-ending, global War on Terror? As is so often the case, there was no political cost to doing the wrong thing. And there was no political reward for doing the right thing.

But Senator Obama did the right thing.

Is Senator Obama perfect? Of course not. Nobody who voted for 2005's wack-ass energy bill is perfect. Nobody who voted to reauthorize the Patriot Act is perfect.

But of the two remaining Democratic candidates, one decided her vote on Amendment No. 4882 according to a political calculation. The other used a moral calculation.

I'm 35 years old, and over the years, I've had two experiences in the voting booth: I've voted for politicians I really respected, who I knew could never win. And I've voted for politicians I didn't really respect, because I knew they could win.

Tomorrow, I'm going to vote for a politician I really respect, who I know can win.

62.

The mandate on auto is for liability IF you cause damage or costs to someone else through your actions. So if you cause an accident, your insurance covers their losses (both property and medical/pain).

Steve,

Florida has no such mandate for "liability." The only mandate we have here is called "No Fault Insurance" which requires $10,000 coverage that pays for any medical care up to $10,000 for a victim of an accident, no matter which party is to blame.

Perhaps Florida is just a more Democratic state than yours is. But I doubt if your state has any such mandate either except for a form of No Fault. Check your policy.

if you bet with your head not your heart last night go out and buy some diamonds for Valentines Day before you spend it all on yourself

and that matters now,why?

I think Tom, in his roundabout way, is drawing attention to the similarity between the health insurance plans of Obama and Dean (which everybody here thought great 4 years ago.)

But it makes sense that those who, until a few days ago, supported a candidate who changed his own positions since then would have changed their own positions as well.

Iowa has a mandate for liability insurance Joan jail time if you have an accident without it

Phil wrote "and [your opinion of Howard Dean's plans for health care coverage] matters now,why?"

Because I was interested in seeing if you or anyone supported such a plan.

During the crying meeting:

From NBC's Lauren Appelbaum
Clinton lost her voice pretty badly while at a roundtable in New Haven, CT. She asked for a lozenge and water, and after a minute, she tried to answer a question on health care. She got one short sentence out, and then breathlessly said, "This comes and goes."

A nurse then talked for six minutes, giving Clinton a chance to regain use of her voice. About eight minutes after losing her voice, Clinton began to get her voice back (but still was scratchy).

During the crying meeting:

From NBC's Lauren Appelbaum
Clinton lost her voice pretty badly while at a roundtable in New Haven, CT. She asked for a lozenge and water, and after a minute, she tried to answer a question on health care. She got one short sentence out, and then breathlessly said, "This comes and goes."

A nurse then talked for six minutes, giving Clinton a chance to regain use of her voice. About eight minutes after losing her voice, Clinton began to get her voice back (but still was scratchy).

Continuing the health care discussion. Obama supporters, I have heard no substantive response beyond slogans! Krugman raises these issues here:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/04/health-care-thoughts/

From Obama's website;

1. Affordable premiums, co-pays and deductibles.
2. Subsidies. Individuals and families who do not qualify for Medicaid or SCHIP but still need financial assistance will receive an income-related federal subsidy to buy into the new public plan or purchase a private health care plan.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The devil is in the details, and there are precious few. What is considered "affordable". It's a buzzword without meaning unless defined with details. What is the level of income-related subsidy?

When paired with no mandates, I see the premium costs going higher and the subsidies lower (because of deficits and reluctance on the part of Obama to say he will raise taxes). These same questions can be applied to Clinton's plan but at least the mandates will enlarge the risk pool which is what will keep premiums in check.

11:47 AM EST

if you bet with your head not your heart last night go out and buy some diamonds for Valentines Day before you spend it all on yourself  

+++

Word of advice if you do buy diamonds, ask the clerk if they are "conflict free" diamonds.  Diamonds above a certain carat level/cost are required to have certificates if they are from countries where no current conflict is going on.

7.

rd

Just one more reason the Rethugs are hoping HRC wins the primary. Sooooo much baggage to carry, sooooo easy to beat in the GE even with their awful slate of candidates and their terrible ratings.

There is only one candidate left who can win easily in November, racists excluded -- some which may even hang out here, and that candidate is Obama.

Joan* In*Florida
Mon, 02/04/08

Joan,

that is liability insurance. The mandate is for a certain level of liability. It's the same in all states, only the minimum level varies. But insurance is mandated because your choices may incur costs on others.

Feminists don't "find their voices" at age sixty, folks.

What an effin' disgrace.

Funny, I don't see any federally-funded abortions for low income women on Medicaid (as having been a focus during her Sentate terms).

Enforcement of the 1963 Fair Pay Equity Act?

I haven't seen it.

Family Medical Leave Act doesn't include PAID wages while out of the workplace, either.

What she omits is more important, vs. what she includes.

Oopsie.

The Sen. Dems. can't even force SCHIP passage, re: roll call vote muster.

Expect Billary to pull out the stops (now thru tomorrow).

NH redux--she's desperate, now that the NY feminists have come out for Obama.

Recall Billary's NH primary IL Planned Parenthood smearing of Obama (which was a lie).

His reproductive rights-oriented roll call votes have been JUST FINE.

I have zero respect for *any* upper SES credentialized Second Waver feminists who stays married to a 30 yrs.+ womanizer; and sexual harrasser. He ruined Gore's 2000 election.

Bullshit.

She shouldn't be running the most powerful country inhe world, sans any freakin' boundaries of "self."

"Misty-eyed," my flat arse.

What a manipulator.

A.B.H.

joan and other Obama supporters:

Would you accept "mandates" if it was called "no fault insurance" requirements?

Indy wrote "When paired with no mandates, I see the premium costs going higher and the subsidies lower (because of deficits and reluctance on the part of Obama to say he will raise taxes)."

You liar.  Obama and Edwards tax reform plans both get rid of the Bush tax cuts.

I was attracted to Howard Dean's "Success By Six" before he opposed the war, and ran for local office in the fall of 2002 after hearing his "you have the power" call. we all know Dean the pragmatist versus Kucinich the idealist, but I resist giving away something before you even sit down at the table.

Hillary wins the health care argument, let it lie.

17.

Don't assume you have all the healthcare facts from Steve.

Check them out for yourself at:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

And don't assume anything about Krugman. He teaches economics but he is a pundit when it comes to politics, one who has an agenda of his own which is to sell newspapers. As one of the editors of the NYT, in New York, he has been pushing Clinton for some time. 

quick good morning,

From the January 31st Christian Science Monitor:

"In some of Haiti's most impoverished neighborhoods, cookies made of dirt, salt, and vegetable shortening have become a regular meal. according to an Associated Presss report abaout coping with rising food costs in the region.  Cookies are a bargain at 5 cents apiece, but depending on them for sustenance risks malnutrition, some doctors say. "

Then an article about the thousands of street children in Cairo who have left home because of violence, hunger, and neglect.  There are now some nongovernmental, mostly relgious groups, tring to provide two meals a day and a place for them to be.  

I like the Monitor because it's one of the few papers that recognizes there's a world out there and we are all connected. 

I have a hard time understanding the mindset of Carl Rove.  He must have been hurt terribly as a child.  To those whom evil has been done, do evil to others.  We have so much in this country, and we've gone so far away from the ideals and values we hold, that we truly do need to be the Hopi saying, "We are the ones we have benn waiting for."

Snow here and cold.  I feel cabin fever setting in. 

We have mandates living in America. Social Security, Medicaid, Federal Taxes, Sales tax.

My sense is Obama omitted mandates (the ONLY significant difference between plans) because he wanted to court the "libertarian" free-choice crowd. To me, this is triangulation where policy is designed to move right but compromised from the get-go.

Is this emblematic of how he will govern? If he designs a health care program that caves to individualistic choice from the get-go, and then attempts to patch it up with vague promises of "affordability" and "subsidies"?

I'm looking for a substantive response and discussion, folks. My vote is undecided at this point.

Quick good bye:  I think people show what they are made of when disappointment and failure occur.  Howard Dean, despite being ridiculed nationally, didn't take it personally, rolled up his sleeves, ran for chair of the party, worked towards a fifty state strategy. 

It will be enlightening to see how the candidates respond when they meet obstacles or are not successful.

Howard Dean put the party ahead of himself, and the country ahead of the party. 

2. and others

from a previous thread

There is simply no factual basis for the assertion that an individual mandate, by itself, would result in coverage for 15 million more Americans than would robust efforts to make health care more affordable and accessible."

80 Health Care and Legal Experts: Universal Coverage and the Presidential Candidates� Health Care Proposals
February 01, 2008

http://factcheck.barackobama.com/factche...

You liar.  Obama and Edwards tax reform plans both get rid of the Bush tax cuts.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

true, Edwards was going to pay for his health care plan in paygo fashion

but Obama has floated a whole new round of tax cuts for the middle class including none for seniors up to $50,000

Obama's runaway momentum won't be affected at all by rhetoric about health insurance proposals from a few petulant former Edwardiacs.

Phil wrote "Hillary wins the health care argument, let it lie."

If that matters to you, vote for her.  There are other reasons to support a candidate for president.  If Obama's health care coverage plan is only as good as Dean's, but he is not the embodiment of the opposition that exists in the party to Dean's role, he get's my vote.

21.

Steve,

What you wrote is ridiculous.

Auto insurance is written by the state one lives in, sometimes with local additions.

And No Fault is not a liability insurance that covers property damage.

~~~~~~~~~~~

National new polls on MSNBC

Obama 41%

Clinton 41%

I'm looking for a substantive response and discussion, folks. My vote is undecided at this point.

Sounds to me like Hillary is your cup of tea. 

As one of the editors of the NYT, in New York, he has been pushing Clinton for some time.

~~~~~~~~~

be backed Edwards actually and like all Edwards supporters who are looking for a new home

Joan* In*Florida
Mon, 02/04/08

Why don't you provide some "facts" of your own rather than referring to the website? Obama doesn't deal with this problem with his program.

BTW, krugman was very favorable of Edwards, esp. on health care. Now he is fairly evaluating and challenging Obama on health care.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/01/opinion/01krugman.html

If you want to convince Edwards' folks to your candidate, listen to us, learn policy and be able to discuss it. Don't just refer to slogans or websites.

National new polls on MSNBC

Obama 41%

Clinton 41%

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

where Edwards supporters go decides this Tues. vote which is why you Obama supporters are d*mned fools attacking universal health care today 

Sounds to me like Hillary is your cup of tea.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

et tu?

Joan* In*Florida
Mon, 02/04/08

Joan,

With all respect, you are just wrong on this one. No Fault is different than insurance mandates. Some are no fault states, some are not.

But All states have insurance mandates for liability. The rationale is that one's choices and decisions affect others. Mandated insurance is a better way to enforce that than expensive lawsuits trying to get "blood out of a turnip".

If you want to convince Edwards' folks to your candidate, listen to us, learn policy and be able to discuss it. Don't just refer to slogans or websites.

Those who need to be convinced are just sheeple who cant decide for themselves.

It's a matter of GOTV tomorrow...whomever has the most effective field operation.

(Hence, the "misty-eyed" stuff appearing along about now--Billary's desperate).

As long as Obama doesn't say anything dumb, he might pull it off.

Voters in "Super-Duper" Tuesday states are (for the most part) at work, will pick up the kids, do errands, fix dinner of some sort, relax a bit, go to bed, etc. And repeat the drudgery of the process tomorrow.

That's those who are *likely* to primary or caucus, which is a tiny minority of the electorate in said states.

I strongly doubt they'll be blogging/researching the finer details of healthcare policy before voting tomorrow, folks.

Blathering on about it here isn't gonna change anything.

Any candidate can project policies all they want...doesn't mean they have a rat's butt chance of *passing* said legislation (as well as getting its funding appropriated at the federal level).

See failure of SCHIP passage of late fmi.

Indy wrote "If you want to convince Edwards' folks to your candidate, listen to us, learn policy and be able to discuss it."

Supporters of Edwards or any other former candidate can do what they want, but reading the liberal manifestos of Edwards' boosters here, I never considered the possiblity that they would shift allegiances to a DLC officer who never viewed her support of an invasion authorization vote a mistake. 

Now I understand that the sentiments expressed by such boosters, like those of the candidate, were essentially hot air.  I can't act surprised by the revelation.

mainefem
Mon, 02/04/08

Triangulation is devising policy to the right to appeal to groups that aren't traditionally "Democratic" constituency. obama's health insurance looks just like this kind of triangulation. This is worth discussing rather than slogans or fall in line or ABH mentality.

Clinton is clearly a triangulator. Seems like we might have a choice between two of 'em.

12:23 PM EST

It's a matter of GOTV tomorrow...whomever has the most effective field operation.

(Hence, the "misty-eyed" stuff appearing along about now--Billary's desperate).

+++

mainefem -

Yep, operation "The Crying Game" redux (first in NH on the eve of the primary vote there; now in CT on the eve of the primary vote there).  Frankly, I don't want a president who cries in public or goes speechless.

Where's the steel ? (or are those crocodile tears ?)

28.

Ah, so well "said."

Betty Friedan, author of The Feminine Mystique  was my inspiration in the early 60's.

Hillary Clinton should have gotten a clue back then and anytime since that every woman was not born with a silver spoon in her mouth like she was. She didn't need to know about woman's rights.

21.

Phil Specht
Mon, 02/04/08

Reply to this
National new polls on MSNBC

Obama 41%

Clinton 41%

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

where Edwards supporters go decides this Tues. vote which is why you Obama supporters are d*mned fools attacking universal health care today


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Phil we're not looking at only healthcare, we're looking at the whole picture. I find Hillary a bad choice because of the dynastic notion if nothing else. We've had enough Clintons and Bushes. The Clintons represent the other side of the corporatist side of the coin -- more folks in Washington getting rich on the backs of hardworking Americans. Obama has a healthcare plan and it would make it affordable for all Americans. That's a h*ll of a lot more than we have right now. I don't want any more Bill or any more Hillary or any more Jeb or Prescott or whatever that kids name is or Chelsea. This country is a democracy. If you folks want a monarchy, move to England, no offense to the Royal Family whom I greatly admire, in particular the Queen.

mainefem

most very close elections are decided by two groups the jay walk all stars and the bar stool jerked chains, and busy busy people who feel the need to vote after saying earlier they wouldn't and are not in the GOTV universe

the wild card in this election are the "not likely" voters who are moved

Obama has a great GOTV program but his margin will come out of the blue

"likely" Edwards are the largest undecided cohort and will be until they get in the voting booth

they aren't the number ones that must be gotten to the polls

in the next round of states they won't matter

11:30 CST

43.

Where is this stuff coming from about Hillary's current "misty-eyed" occasion??

My husband will have a belly laugh and contortions over this one. He wrote a letter to the editor about her NH episode which incidently was published.

Desparation indeed.

31.

Indy Steve
Mon, 02/04/08

Reply to this
Continuing the health care discussion. Obama supporters, I have heard no substantive response beyond slogans!

++++++++++++++

Please see number 18 and above which lists 80 'experts' (at least they know more than I do) who say there's no basis that a mandate would make any difference. There's a KOS diary quoting the same thing.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2...

Why Paul Krugman is Wrong
by Jayaprakash Narayan [Subscribe]

Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 12:29:38 AM PST

40. I see it as an attempt to find common ground not triangulation. I think what a lot of people see in Obama is someone who will try to find common ground.

Steve:

I'm with Joan on this one.

You're perfectly capable of researching both Obama's and Billary's healthcare policy proposals (on your own accord).

Again...there's a slim chance in hell that either would pass thru both houses of Congress, or be appropriated.

Edwards is out.

It's down to Billary or Obama.

I'm not even registered to vote again, but I'm doing so in a defensive manner on Feb. 10th.

My area is filled w/too many suck-ups to the state party's machine (Gov. is triangulated, and for Billary).

He's the reason over 10K Dems have unenrolled...wants to slash millions of dollars in MaineCare funding.

...imagine telling the most poor and vulnerable folks in the state that they need to "tighten their belts!?"

We worked out butts off for him...twice.

And are stuck w/him until 2010.

His "healthcare model" sides w/the insurance companies, re: administration & implementation.

We're still at loggerheads w/Baldacci...bigtime.

His DirigoChoice program has tanked...what a mess.

He won't let go of it (too expensive for people to join, and the bennies suck).

Managed by Pilgrim now--previously by Blue Cross Anthem (we objected to that initially; and he wouldn't listen to reason).

All gloves are off in the legislature during this session.

Tough crap if he doesn't like it.

He refuses to raise taxes (sales--on booze, candy, soda, & junk food), in order to maintain access for those vulnerable folks; and is instead...cutting services and enrollment.

Again.

You best believe that those of us in the base are livid.

To hell w/Baldacci's endorsement of Billary...she's reviled up here w/the base.

Yes, most were probably Edwards supporters (those who will even bother to caucus at all).

It's A.B.H.

Let's see I think this play is as follows: Hill cries, then Bill pipes up and reminds us that Obama is a "black" man. Isn't that how it goes? Then they hack all the Diebolds all over the country and everyone says 'gee those polls are getting worthlesser and worthlesser." Isn't that what happened in NH? But then all the South Carolinians got p*ssed. I hope all the Californians get good and p*ssed tomorrow.

I want to say it one more time and then I'll give it a rest.

This is our first national primary, and Edwards leaving with 15% just days before the vote is like Ross Perot doing the same thing a week out in 1992.

would Bill Clinton still have won?

this is a big wild card and they will not be in either candidates GOTV universe but are likely voters, and on issues, because Edwards was always first with detailed plans

I just wouldn't continue to argue the one issue where Edwards and Clinton agreed if I were Obama folks

11:43 CST

Last nite we witnessed one of the best football games EVER.

What a treat. While I really didn't care who won, I do like Brady's story of how he barely played in high school and was a low draft pick out of college.

Two great quarterbacks. someone had to win.

my post should have been no. 57 and now it is no. 34.

come on guys, you playing with us?? this is ridiculous.

Joan - I think Hillary is hoarse and probably sick. The diary has disappeared from Kos.

Last nite we witnessed one of the best football games EVER.

What a treat. While I really didn't care who won, I do like Brady's story of how he barely played in high school and was a low draft pick out of college.

Two great quarterbacks. someone had to win.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I had to think of Judy Lynne Cadoret's dad and his Archie Manning fan club that he shared with jc, I was thinking jc's angel is probably just playful enough to knock down a Brady pass or two

me I liked the number of times Brady was put on his back by defensive ends and thought the Giants defensive line should have gotten the game ball

the team that thinks they "ought" to win before it starts usually loses

12:53 PM EST

43.

Where is this stuff coming from about Hillary's current "misty-eyed" occasion??

My husband will have a belly laugh and contortions over this one. He wrote a letter to the editor about her NH episode which incidently was published.

Desparation indeed.

+++

Joan -

The Crying Game sequel:

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/02/04/635882.aspx

CLINTON ROUNDTABLE IN CONNECTICUT

From NBC/NJ's Athena Jones
NEW HAVEN, Conn. -- The day before 22 states hold the closest thing to a national primary anyone has seen, Hillary Clinton's first public event was a small roundtable with 11 women.

...

Penn Rhodeen, Clinton's supervisor during her time at the center, introduced the senator, hailing her work on behalf of children. He seemed to get a little choked up as he spoke, saying she had always been and would always be a champion for children. After he spoke, Clinton joked that she had said she wouldn't tear up, but that already it wasn't looking good. Her eyes had misted up a bit, but there were no actual tears. 

...

12.

Phil Specht
Mon, 02/04/08

Hillary wins the health care argument, let it lie.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++