Once again, Dean is FIRST, like always. . . .

w00T!!

6:00 pst

67.

Michael,

I really don't give a damn what you think.  Or if you are nauseated.  If you want to live in a world of cynicism go ahead.  I don't choose to

========================

I like you Mike, but you do sometimes talk as if you have an arthropod lodged in your rectum

Very little daylight between the two.  Good debate.  HC's ahead a small bit. I like her health care policy and immigration stance better than his.

He voted for Mukasey and that's very troubling.  Neither one seems to have a grasp on telling the good guys from the bad.  Poor judgment of character.

Puddle's first.

Right? She said she was, "New thread, where I might be first"

Of course she is, and I know we all agree, because the truth is self evident.

9:08EST

The Dem debate tonight seems good to me, but I'm a Dirt Farmer 

For any of you people out there who are able to watch this impartially, HC is sounding damn good.  I'm very impartial cuz my guy(s) are gone and I'm pretty much done with those who are left. 

So far my questions haven't been addressed.  The environmnet, I/P, Pakistan, lobbies on the Hill.  I'm sure there are more........

Very little daylight between the two.

Definitely not much daylight between them in the polls I keep hearing about. I won't be surprised if Obama cleans the Clintons' clock on Tuesday.

really seashell, don't you have any idea how Hillary and her crew of DLCers ( Carvel etc) will destroy the progressive movement that Howard Dean started?

Guess which constellation is high in the sky, as our Dems debate the future?

 http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:1okMwQ7QOKztNM:http://hsci.cas.ou.edu/images/jpg-100dpi-10in/19thCentury/Aspin/1825/Aspin-1825-Orion.jpg

fer god's sake, HC, say you made a mistake in the war vote and be done with it.

Don't like either one of them. 

In all fairness, if you throw out Hillary's votes with the worst of Bush's agenda from 2001-2005, Hillary and Obama aren't that far apart on their records. And if you throw out Hillary's attempts to portray Obama as a crack dealer and the candidate of African Americans, they aren't that far apart on character either.

 just want to say, "Hello down there"

Just popped in and, if things keep going as they have been, this post will NOT pop up under Holly J's, where it should.

I am not a Hillary supporter but I do think that there is more than a bit of hysteria when some people here insist that Hillary and her crowd will destroy the progressive movement that Howard Dean started. Please get a grip.

It is a fact that there is not all that much daylight between HC and BO. The one clear bright line on Iraq is that Barack was not in Congress to vote in 2002. His actions since have been disppointing, however. Hillary did not learn from her first vote and should have.

Another clear bright line for me is that Hillary voted for Kyl-Leiberman. VERY bad idea. Barack voted against.

Although it is Hillary that has a paragraph in her issues section about how the interests of Israel are important to the US and Barack does not, I frankly don't believe that there will be much difference between them on I-P issues.

Both of them love this country and both of them have spent much of their lives in public service. Both of them BELIEVE in pulic service.

Unless you believe that we progressives are simply wimps who will accept being destroyed, let us please quit repeating this neocon meme about Hillary destroying the progressive movement. Let us not do the Rethugs' work for them.

Howard has started a movement that has grown even beyond the wildest imaginings. You cannot imagine, for example, what he has done to energize the millions of ex-pats abroad and we are no small group or one without influence. We will NOT be disregarded by any politician ever again. It is up to each of US to ensure that whichever of the potential candidates is the nominee understands that we are here, that We The People will no longer be trifled with and that we will not stand for politics as usual.

That is OUR responsibility.

As Howard keeps telling us, it IS up to us.

Yes, Holly, I didn't say I was going to vote for her.  I'm looking at the debate itself.   Besides, we JE's supporters have been saying that w/o JE in the race, HC has a lot less chance.  Now she has a better one.   BO supporters have no one to blame but themselves if she wins the nomination.  Her chances increased hugely after JE left.

Actually the debate is boring....important things not being addressed...now trivia is.  Cripes. 

Barack just kicked Hillary's butt on Iraq. *It's important to be right on day one*.

less s/b better.  W/O JE, HC is in a good place to win. 

Sorry for all the misspellings & typos in my last ... my fingers tend to get carried away.

Judy, well said. 

His pro vote on energy and hers on the war are both troubling.

Here we go...talking about a "dream ticket."  Prepare yourselves, BO supporters.   

Ya, Paine, I *wuz* first till I tol' the rest of ya'll, lol! Think they'll fix this in the waning two hours of January? Or has we been, gasp, lied to again?


9:47 pm EST

Nice one Judy.  Yeahr! ;-)

gasp !!!

The impact of JE leaving on Hillary and Obama is an interesting debate.

My own family, for example, voted for JE in Florida. If he would not have been in the race, my sister would have voted for Hillary, my dad would have voted for Obama.

Health care and immigration...the only things addressed.  I guess other issues don't count.  What a bore it turned into.  And on those two issues, there's very little difference.

Tuesday is a chance for the American people to have the power and vote for JE, on the ticket or not.  These two people are pretty much twins.  We deserve better.  We could have done so much better than this.

Cordial, boring, mostly superficial.  However, they're better than what we have...not saying much is it?  Flip a coin and go vote.  :-)

And if you throw out Hillary's attempts to portray Obama as a crack dealer and the candidate of African Americans, they aren't that far apart on character either. 

___

Hilarious. 

I do like Barack's willingness to talk with leaders even when they are not our *friends.* That is one reason that he has a slight edge with me right now.

The failure even to listen respectfully has been a major reason for so many of our foreign policy gaffes and failures.

If Clinton really keeps to that hard-line stance, it does not bode well.

Well, gone now ... and puddle, wherever your post ends up, you are first in our hearts here, together with Howard.

Well, gone now ... and puddle, wherever your post ends up, you are first in our hearts here, together with Howard.

Soory for the double ... now really gone.

I doubt Hillary and crew will destroy us progressive Judy but they sure will make it a lot harder.

Many, many new people have been drawn in to politics with Obama. The Obama yahoo group that I am a part of sounds so much like we did with Dean 4 years ago.


I feel with Obama, the people will remain invested in the political process. This is truly important to the revival of our democracy.

Funny that Hillary's recent Iran vote did not come up

Actually, Holly, JE in the race was siphoning off enuf delegates to keep HC from getting 50 plus 1, the nomination.  JE could have been kingmaker and pulled the party even more, if possible, to the left.  It could have been a very interesting convention...maybe even Gore would or could have been nominated.  We'll never know now....

There's so little difference between them, how does one decide?  Not the war...BO keeps voting to fund it.  Drivers licenses?  Has it come down to drivers licenses?

bbl maybe 

Wind has been out of my sail for quite a while now...going local with what energy I have left...bye all

Wolf Blitzer is spinning his brains out over a Democratic dream ticket Obama/Clinton or the other way that I'm not going to type out loud.

Why is Wolf peddling this slant so obviously hard?

Yeah, Wolf. Castro thinks it's a great ticket too. I believe he was quoted saying so in the press.

Obama/Napolitano

HC's commitment to women and children is appealing, but she needs to control.  I like BO saying that he would put very good people in the Cabinet but I laughed at his idea for citizen participation on CSPAN. Maybe i heard that wrong.

Neither one has an edge yet for me. 

fer god's sake, HC, say you made a mistake in the war vote and be done with it.

Don't like either one of them

=======================

7:14 pst

should be 33.

Hard for Hillary to apologize after her recent show of Machismo on Iran

test

My grades for tinites debate........................

Foreign policy    Obama   C      Hillary D

Domestic issues  Obama C+   Hillary  B

Demeanour, candor    Obama B   Hillary C-

Final Grades    Obama B-   Hillary C

Hillary won the debate tonight on my scorecard, if you assume the polls right and she is the national front runner,  and he had to distinguish the differences and she could blur them. quick what was the difference in any of their plans? if it was health care she won

Reed in VT

Be well, and don't be a stranger.

 "I feel with Obama, the people will remain invested in the political process. This is truly important to the revival of our democracy. "

Yup.  What Holly said.


 

 quick what was the difference in any of their plans? if it was health care she won  

>

Good, Phil. 
I saw only the first half, but I think she scored far better on the "immigration" issue.

Yup.  What Holly said.
>

Right, donna.   Obama draws the movement with him, and I'm not at all keen on waiting 8 years if Hillary wins.  Yet, Hillary was, from what I caught, two-thirds of a grade better than Barack (comparisons with Mike "the predicktor" welcome).

BO supporters have no one to blame but themselves if she wins the nomination.  Her chances increased hugely after JE left.

In case anyone doesn't get this remark, I think it says that Obama's supporters could have stopped Hillary by supporting Edwards instead.

Of course, if Obama wins big on Tuesday a new tack will have to be take. 

Wind has been out of my sail for quite a while now...going local with what energy I have left...bye all

We all know how that feels.~
It's the eternal fight between logic and feeling.

When will we be able to reconcile?

And then there are principles.
My principles don't allow me to vote for Clinton.

This of course is against all logic.

Actually, Holly, JE in the race was siphoning off enuf delegates to keep HC from getting 50 plus 1, the nomination.  JE could have been kingmaker and pulled the party even more, if possible, to the left.

For someone who described yourself just a few days ago as a "reluctant" Edwards supporter, you remain curiously obsessed with him.

You don't have to jump on Obama's or Hillary's bandwagons, but it's time to realize that Edwards' wagon has no wheels and all the coulda-woulda-shouldas won't put them back on.

Yup.  What Holly said.

Just voted on moveon's site - for Obama. I said I don't share the same principles as Hillary and she would probably deep six Howard's 50 state strategy as well as some other reasons. I also think Barack will actually listen to people. We don't need another authoritarian president.period.

7:49 PST - who knows where this post will end up.

Edwards had to compete against "history"; two "historic" choices, and as such didn't have a chance, although he had a long enough run to make them both offer health care plans. If it does happen that this country moves to universal health care his effort will have not been in vain.

now comes the tough decision

which view of "history" do we want to write, well I don't want to disappoint my sisters out there,but if Obama wins the primary I don't think he is going to want to burden himself with the Clintons

Holly J wrote, " revival of our democracy"

> that's a good line.   

thanks for the link to the speech Monica, I remember hearing parts of it on NPR, I would feel better about our Professor of Constitutional Law if he would reference it

Hillary talks about the disadvantaged people in our society and I'm sure is sincere in her empathy in wanting to right those wrongs, but Bill's collaboration put the tilt in that table

I don't want to go back there, and neither does a majority of voters I fear.

so I decline to support Hillary, even though as Judy says the consequences of the likes of voters and party members like me making that decision are dire with four more years of R

I'm not where Reed is yet, but I'm getting there.

boy it sure is hard to have any kind or orderly conversation here. When someone says they agree you have no idea what they are talking about. LOL

It is a paine. We are supposed to be in the 21. century?

11:03 pm paine posting time  Oops again...11:04

10:07 CST

Neil Young - Heart Of Gold        http://hypem.com/track/467966

I complain about bad money driving out good with our trade with China and then perform the function of bad money here with my spelling and grammar.

Wolf Blitzer is spinning his brains out over a Democratic dream ticket Obama/Clinton or the other way that I'm not going to type out loud.

Why is Wolf peddling this slant so obviously hard?

Because you couldn't fill a thimble with the imaginations of all the wags combined. They can only repeat the propaganda they're faxed by various entities -- mostly conservative.

A good one going around for the past few days in the CM is that Huckabee is helping McCain by dividing the hardcase conservative vote with Romney. Think about it.... these are nuts who think Mormons worship satan and that Massachusetts is a province in Red China -- and they'd vote for Romney if weren't for Huckabee.

But why bother thinking when they can regurgitate faxes from the Ronmey campaign to explain why he hasn't been able to buy the nomination? 

screw even local politics Reed there is a ball game this weekend and nobody will be paying attention til after the game anyway

take the points

well no, not you who vote with your hearts not your heads, lol

party on

"buying the nomination" is exactly what they should harp on when running against him.

When Obama was running for Senate, there was this guy named Hull who tried to buy his way in. He hired tons of young people to shout for him and put up hundreds of sign us. What really took him down was his ex-wife saying he was a sex pervert. Wonder if that wouldn't have happened if he really could have bought his way in.

Hopefully money is not enough, you need a good candidate

Well, I guess it will be Clinton, Obama or a Repug. I guess Obama would be better than Bomb,bomb Iran.

boy it sure is hard to have any kind or orderly conversation here.

 Since when was there ever an orderly conversation here?

I think the essence of community is conversation..
some prefer an orderly conversation, some like it wild.

Our survival depends on communication. We have the power. But we need to share it with each other.

Communication is sharing.

Let's see Holly is at 61 - just testing where this post lands.

Clinton still reminds me of the kid in class who is antsy to answer every question, ask every question and won't shut up during these debates. *I know, I know, let me answer*. Gets to me.

The indigenous

v

The newcomers

Neil Young - Cortez The Killer        http://hypem.com/track/425827

Man, it's tough to be thrown back to the old ages.

 11:31 pm bfa time

Hi Folks,

I enjoyed reading the responses.  I think there is a huge difference in how the two candidates think.  One is top down, controlling; the other is a new paradigm of citizen participation, bringing all stake holders to the table.

A description of the new paradigm is all the stake holders sit on one side of the table, the issue or problem is on the other side.  This is Obama's mode.

The old paradigm is you sit opposing groups opposite each other; this is confrontation and compromise, the old paradigm.  This is HIllary Clinton's mode.

I thought the debate was very good.  I wonder if peple picked up on the very different mindsets.

NIght all.  Yawn. 

Just about to turn in, but David Letterman is riffing away on Mitt Romney ...

" .... he looks like a ringmaster ...

he looks like a tennis pro at a restricted country club ..."

and more along that vein.

Sigh ... !

Wish that I felt more like laughing.

'Nite now.