Dean is first.

That's all I have to say.

Oh, yes--

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/6/4/7...

as Judy has attested to in the previous thread's comment  9. ...

... D-day begins for Charles Taylor today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6707551.stm

The trial of former Liberian President Charles Taylor in The Hague, starting on Monday, marks another stage in the world's efforts to bring crimes against humanity to book.

...

The British government has offered to imprison Mr Taylor if he is convicted.

Unlike the Yugoslavia and Rwanda tribunals, the UN does not fund it and it relies on governments - mainly the US, UK, the Netherlands and Canada - for support. It is currently asking for more cash to enable it to complete the Taylor trial, which is expected to last for a year to 18 months. That would be quite quick in international terms. The Milosevic trial went on for four years and the accused died in custody before it finished.

'Strong signal' sent by trial

Nevertheless, the Taylor trial is characterised by Human Rights Watch as an important moment that "sends a strong signal that no one is above the law."

The chief prosecutor, a former US federal attorney from Iowa, Stephen Rapp, who was a prosecutor in the Rwanda tribunal, told the BBC in an interview in March: "This is an enormous test of international justice."

Mr Taylor faces 11 charges. These relate to terrorising the civilian population, murder, sexual violence (rape and sexual slavery), physical violence (cutting off limbs), using child soldiers (under the age of 15), enslavement (forced labour) and looting.

The issue of linkage

The key point in the trial will not be whether he committed these acts himself.

The argument will be about whether he ordered, supported or condoned such acts. The former president will argue that he did not.

...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2963086.stm

...

Like many Americo-Liberians he studied in the United States.

He returned home shortly after Master Sergeant Samuel Doe mounted Liberia's first successful coup d'etat in 1980.

Rogues' gallery

Mr Taylor landed a plum job in Doe's regime running the General Services Agency, a position that meant controlling much of Liberia's budget.

He later fell out with Doe, who accused him of embezzling almost $1m, and fled back to the US.

Mr Taylor denied the charges, but ended up in the Plymouth County House of Correction in Massachusetts, detained under a Liberian extradition warrant.

Some reports say he managed to escape the prison by sawing through the bars; others that there was some collusion in his departure from Americans who wanted him to play the role he then proceeded to carve out for himself - overthrowing the corrupt, violent and generally disastrous regime of Samuel Doe.

Mr Taylor's rebellion succeeded partly because of Doe's incompetence. But it was also the fruit of Mr Taylor's building of sometimes surprising alliances.

His friends over the years have included the once-radical Colonel Gaddafi of Libya, the conservative former ruler of Ivory Coast Felix Houphouet-Boigny, the current President of Burkina Faso, Blaise Compaore, and a rogues' gallery of businessmen, local and foreign, prepared to flout UN disapproval to make money in Liberia.

After winning power militarily, Charles Taylor won elections in 1997.

Although the polls were probably the most democratic the country had seen at the time, Mr Taylor's critics say he bullied and bought the electorate.

...

Arrest

He was detained by the UN-backed Special Court for Sierra Leone last year after a period of enforced exile in Nigeria.

...

51.

Reed in VT
Mon, 06/04/07
8:30 am

...
Being at the debate was exciting but very disappointed with the format...again. With no opening or closing statements, moderator cherry picking questions, time unevenly divided, placement of candidates as well as cameras all favored the three front runners and partially censored others. Seems money can buy debates too.
-------------

...lol, that's a discovery(sarcasm)!

Is there anything money can't buy in this country..., just curios?

A welcome humorous firsties Monica

From the previous thread:

7.

Bill Stockton
Mon, 06/04/07
3:57 am

Reply to this
26.


Michael Ellis
Mon, 06/04/07
3:53 am

You should shut your trap about this country. You are a guest here. Perhaps you should leave.
-----------
Wow! From what I recall Mike was born in the US -- sort of a caustic statement from someone who surely doesn't know what's up.

volney said she would make a prediction : "If HRC gets the nomination and ousts Dean as chair and loses... I say PRESIDENT DEAN 2012!"

I’ll go along with that, although I have grave doubts about the prospects of a Democratic presidential challenger to an incumbent in his party, but here’s my prediction. If Clinton is beginning to outpace her nearest two opponents in national polling by the end of September, and Obama and Edwards are still dividing the opposing votes, I think that will be the trigger point for Gore’s decision to enter the race. If either Obama and Edwards begins to fade and the other presents as a genuinely formidable challenger, I think Gore will stay out and endorse Clinton’s nearest opponent.

With no opening or closing statements, moderator cherry picking questions, time unevenly divided, placement of candidates as well as cameras all favored the three front runners and partially censored others. Seems money can buy debates too.
__________________________________________________________________________

Reed,

And this is the quandry this country is in when electing its leaders........the result we are imprisoned with a system that only allows a few with money, support and flair to be so called electable, the common person is supposed to just shut up, get in line like good little Nazis and vote.......forget things that this nation is supposed to stand for............which means we are victims of a faulty electoral system and are paying a heavy price for it......................

mary vb
Mon, 06/04/07
9:42 am
__________________________________________________________________________

Smart gal..........well, at least he didnt tel me to "shut up and sing".........now THAT would be a national disaster...............cheers

next Oct/Nov when my wife and I hopefully plan to visit her home country Sierra Leone after their presidential elections this July ...

... well in the words of the group Supertramp "Take The Long Way Home", we think we'll skip the 7 minute helicopter (aging Russian fleet of Mi-8s) ride from the Lungi airport to the Freetown capital and instead opt for the 3 hour ferry ride:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6715937.stm

A helicopter ferrying passengers to Freetown airport in Sierra Leone has crashed, killing 19 people, including Togo's Sports Minister Richard Attipoe.

The passengers were returning from watching Togo beat Sierra Leone 1-0 in an African Nations Cup qualifier.

One of the two Ukrainian pilots survived when the helicopter burst into flames as it came into land.

Helicopters and ferries are the only way to reach the airport, which is located across a bay from Freetown.

...

which means we are victims of a faulty electoral system and are paying a heavy price for it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

only one antidote: help Howard rebuild it, bottom up

you have the power Mike

11.

Phil Specht
Mon, 06/04/07
9:57 am


only one antidote: help Howard rebuild it, bottom up
---------

Who is "Howard"?

Is it Obama, or is it Hillary...?
Or should I wait for Howard himself to let me know...who is....going to be "Howard" this cycle around?

11.

Phil Specht
Mon, 06/04/07
9:57 am


which means we are victims of a faulty electoral system and are paying a heavy price for it.
---------------

which means we are victims of a faulty...system and are paying a heavy price for it.

I stayed up late last night to watch Q&A on CSPAN re-air. The subject was Frank Gafney and his film he made for PBS called Islam vs Islamists. It was made as part of the America at a Crossroads series and PBS paid a tidy sum up front to have it made but decided not to air it. I hate censorship so I was intrigued. Turns out Gafney is 'one of them' - his name came up in the Brian Lamb interview with people like Richard Pearle. But I sat through the whole interview because it made sense to me that there were moderate Muslims and Muslim extremists and that the two might be in conflict. From what I can gather, the movie must scare the h*ll out of us to make us afraid of the Muslim extremists (think Bush and the threat of the 'caliphate'). But I haven't seen the movie so will withhold judgment. I found the first episode of America at a Crossroad so conservatively biased I never watched any more, so I hate to think if this one is even more conservatively biases but I have yet to see the movie so reserve judgment.

What is intriguing is that I can't find one word on the subject on any of our usual liberal blogs at least not from a perfunctory Google search -- but the righties seemed to have talked about it quite a bit.

Here are a few links for you to peruse if you are interested in the subject.

I remain totally against censorship.

http://www.q-and-a.org/
The Q&A blurb on CSPAN

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/...
About as straightforward summary as I can find -- and yes it is the Washington Times

http://www.freethefilm.net/inthenews/rea...
Frank Gafney's website on the subject of the movie Islam vs Islamists

From the previous thread:

7.

Bill Stockton

Reply to this
26.


Michael Ellis
Wow! From what I recall Mike was born in the US -- sort of a caustic statement from someone who surely doesn't know what's up

==============

Caustic is putting mildly - I would call it fascist and piggish - and directed at one of our most intelligent, civile bloggers.    I don't  like to use the word "troll," but it may apply here.

Who had the best one-liner?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

the fact they ask that question proves Al Gore's assertion about the media

I see your keeping up  with old Al.  He's running a cagie campaign and not even in it yet.

Mike is right about the debate though.  I saw a number of clips on MSNBC, and Obama, Hillary, Edwards got all the limelight - all the questions.  And very few creative answers..   Looking at the net polls on the previous thread, guys like Biden did incredibly well with  a minute or so of air time for the entire debate

Mike responded to Reed with the following comments: "we are imprisoned with a system that only allows a few with money, support and flair to be so called electable, the common person is supposed to just shut up, get in line like good little Nazis and vote.......forget things that this nation is supposed to stand for............which means we are victims of a faulty electoral system and are paying a heavy price for it......................"

This complaint reminds me of Woody Allen’s old joke in Annie Hall. "Two elderly women are in a Catskills Mountain resort and one of 'em says: `Boy, the food at this place is really terrible.' The other one says, `Yeah, I know, and such small portions.'"

The unenthusiastic reception from people here and elsewhere who find, that outside of a couple of fringe candidates, none of the Democrats are worth supporting, it’s hard to imagine what system is going to yield the satisfactory Democratic nominee. It’s worse for Republicans, whose large field seems to be increasing monthly.

While money, popularity, and political celebrity are relatively horrible qualifications for the office, a pragmatic analysis might conclude that you have to have some of these in a modern age to eventually get 60 million or so popular votes cast in your favor.

Morning all, still trying to get people to work the DFA table at the Take Back America Conf.

Got a few minutes and a wireless laptop? Love to have u help. Let me know via DFA link.

Howard and Jim will be there.

14.

Annilow
Mon, 06/04/07
10:39 am

.........
What is intriguing is that I can't find one word on the subject on any of our usual liberal blogs at least not from a perfunctory Google search -- but the righties seemed to have talked about it quite a bit.
--------

Blogs is rarely source of knowledge it's rather place of discussing, sharpening them.

It's always better, imo, to use ORIGINAL source of knowledge to shape truly OWN opinion on the subject either it's our strategic enemy "communists" or tactical enemy "islamo-fascists".

Samuel Becket wrote a play once called "Waiting for Go(re)dot" that I read in high school.

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/godot/summary.html

Summary

Two men, Vladimir and Estragon, meet near a tree. They converse on various topics and reveal that they are waiting there for a man named Godot. While they wait, two other men enter. Pozzo is on his way to the market to sell his slave, Lucky. He pauses for a while to converse with Vladimir and Estragon. Lucky entertains them by dancing and thinking, and Pozzo and Lucky leave.After Pozzo and Lucky leave, a boy enters and tells Vladimir that he is a messenger from Godot. He tells Vladimir that Godot will not be coming tonight, but that he will surely come tomorrow. Vladimir asks him some questions about Godot and the boy departs. After his departure, Vladimir and Estragon decide to leave, but they do not move as the curtain falls.

The next night, Vladimir and Estragon again meet near the tree to wait for Godot. Lucky and Pozzo enter again, but this time Pozzo is blind and Lucky is dumb. Pozzo does not remember meeting the two men the night before. They leave and Vladimir and Estragon continue to wait.Shortly after, the boy enters and once again tells Vladimir that Godot will not be coming. He insists that he did not speak to Vladimir yesterday. After he leaves, Estragon and Vladimir decide to leave, but again they do not move as the curtain falls, ending the play.  

typo - a play once called "Waiting for Go(re)dot"

s/b - a play once called re: "Waiting for Godot"

Tom Bearse
Mon, 06/04/07
10:52 am
__________________________________________________________________________

I can accept that........just strike from the record books that "anybody can grow up to be President" then........because it aint so.....................

Remember the Little Rascals episode when the kid plays hookie from school? goes into the sweatshop where some guy is working hitting an anvil and the guy tries to tell the kid to go back to school, "youll never become President"...........

Mike wrote "just strike from the record books that "anybody can grow up to be President" then........because it aint so....................."

Yeah, it's probably beyond time to retire that particualar folk saying.

FRED from OR
Mon, 06/04/07
10:52 am
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Well, we all know by now that thes things are not debates by any stretch of the imagination, they are a couple of minutes per candidate not to put his/her foot in their mouths, rely on cosmetic appearance, throw out a few one liners to humour the public, and get out hopefully unscathed........

Gravel brought up an interesting point about the Clinton national debat reduction and raiding social security trust fund..I wish he was given a chance to expound on that.........Edwards impressed me with his admitting he was wrong on the iraq vote and I respect that.......I think he is getting shut out by Hillary/ Obama regrettably........looked pouty at times...........cheers

rdorgan wrote "Samuel Becket wrote a play once called ‘Waiting for Go(re)dot’ that I read in high school."

I think for liberals, this popular indoor pastime succeeded the captivating "Waiting for [Fein]go[l]dot."

Al Gore sure looks like he has tilted towards yes.

the current group is sorting itself out though and dumping 20 million on the most possible of the somewhat progressive might be the best we can do if he doesn't

I'm keeping my powder dry.

Mike wrote "Edwards impressed me with his admitting he was wrong on the iraq vote and I respect that."

Hopefully, you weren’t impressed that he was wrong in the first place. You see, once he’s Commander-in-Chief, he’ll be making these decisions before anyone in Congress is consulted and, as we’ve seen in some cases, regardless of what is the sense of the Congress or others. It is impossible to shake off the impression that Edwards decides what the proper decision is by interpreting what is best for his political aspirations. In 2002 it was war mongering, but styles have changed. You can think of it as a different hemline length when you’re out choosing a candidate.

"anybody can grow up to be President"

Which has always made me ask, "but who would want to?"

The spouse opines that anyone that wants to be president should be immediately disqualified.

It's really an awful position to put someone in. Which is why we maintain the illusion that they selected themselves.

If we were more honest and recognized that it's a dirty job but somebody's got to do it, then perhaps we would be more supportive and try to make it easier and more pleasant.

I don't derive much consolation from the fact that as his support from the public lessens, it's likely that the Bush administration will get worse and worse. If he's truly incompetent, it needs to be proved and he needs to be removed.

Tom -

You know waiting is fine, but it's just not my cup of tea right now though.

Maybe I settle too easily, as Mike has opined about me a few times ?

Lets' see, hmmmh ...

... I don't think so.

Go Barack !

ok, last comment about Sierra Leone from me this morning, there's a Sierra Leonean artist named Emmerson and here's a youtube piece about one of his most famous songs this year called Borbor Belle (which is English Krio - sierra leonean creole - for "greedy belly" a rich person who just grabs and grabs, Emmerson is very political and sings against greed and corruption in Sierra Leone):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xvDdu3qOwmc&mode=related&search=

There is something wrong with Edwards. Why would he send Bonior as his surrogate to the Dem convention? He's been cruising New Hampshire for two years, made all sorts of contacts and yet, when all the political activists are in one place he sends a surrogate?

I do have to admit that the 600+ Democrats that gathered in Concord are not part of the "beautiful people" crowd. Indeed, most looked like the people you run into in WalMart and macDonald's. Which makes Wolf Blitzer's explanation for why NH is going blue really funny. He ascribes it to people moving in from Massachusetts. The reality is that the communities near the Mass border actually voted Republican.

this was on cbs sunday morning. made me cry.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/03/sunday/main2878715.shtml

Michael Ellis

=========

Not sure, but I do remember the blacksmith telling the boy playing hooky that he should be in schoollearn about gravity like Newton did when the apple fell on his head, to which the smartass kid responded, "yea, that apple wouldn't have fell on his head if he was in school"  which historically is interesting because Newton was inspired to understand universal gravity  when he was in retreat from Oxford to avoid the plague.

one other song from Emmerson:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0XtDv16J-OI&mode=related&search=

Phil Specht
Mon, 06/04/07
11:24 am

                                             I'm with you on that powder is dry here.  Course I will have my hands full next year anyway on my election not formally anounced yet.  

Just got a request to send Edwards money in exchange for his mom's pie recipe. It was sent by Joe Trippi. Guess that explains some things.

Good grief!!

Just one more reason I'm glad I didn't watch the debates and will not in the future either:

Chris Dodd's campaign clocked how much time each candidate received during yesterday's Dem debate. You can see why Dodd did the clocking -- only Joe Biden and Mike Gravel got less gab time than the Senator did.

Obama led the field in airtime, speaking for 16 minutes during the two-hour event. Clinton came in second. And third?

Wolf Blitzer.

The Nation's John Nichols rightly takes Blitzer to task:

Despite the fact that this was a two-hour debate, moderator Wolf Blitzer acted throughout the night as if he was hosting "Beat the Clock." Of course, a moderator must keep a crowded field under control. But the candidates weren't the ones who were off the leash. Rather, it was the CNN anchor who repeatedly interrupted contenders who were trying to explain the basics of their positions, cut off thoughful answers in mid-sentence and failed to follow up when significant points of difference – on issues such as trade policy – were thrown into the mix.

Worst of all, Blitzer tried to take complex issues and reduce them to show-of-hand stunts.

At one point, Blitzer tossed a wild hypothetical at the candidates: If they knew where Osama bin Laden would be for 20 minutes, would they move to eliminate him even if that meant killing "innocent civilians"? Blitzer's question raised fundamental questions: What do we mean by innocent civilians? Are we talking about children? How many would die? Could bin Laden be captured? Would taking him out compromise a flow of intelligence that might provide information that could prevent future attacks on Americans?

Kucinich tried to explore subtleties of international law and common sense, but Blitzer shut him down. Instead of a nuanced discussion on how the U.S. might operate in a post-Bush world, Blitzer simply demanded that candidates raise their hands if they were for getting bin Laden.

Moments later, after Delaware Senator Joe Biden suggested using military force to end the genocide in Darfur, Blitzer was again calling for a show of hands.

No room for a discussion about what sort of force – a no-fly zone or troops on the ground, an international coalition or a U.S.-led expedition, a full-fledged attack on another Muslim state or peacekeeping in the desert – just hands in the air by candidates who were for marching on Africa.

Blitzer was determined to race past anything akin to a serious discussion.

I feel like the majority of public policy is made with a determination to race past anything akin to a serious discussion. The Wolf Blitzers of the world may not be wholly to blame for that, but their vapid sound-bytes sure do piss me off.

The Blog clock seems to be about ten minutes slow -- at least compared to the time where I live.

Although I am not crazy about Hillary and disappointed she is using so much makeup, I did think she explained herself well on the vote to give Bush authority, however she also revealed such naivity (for such an experienced politician) in trusting Bush to use that authority in the assumed way.

Biden's only statement that I saw said the most about why he voted on the funding and was respectful of other's votes.  I am too, but IMO they failed to explain how cutting funding would stop the war at all, much less do it without profound political repercussions, if it were later revealed that funding would have saved scores of lives, as Biden suggested.

Maybe that's why he got relatively high poll numbers for just a minute or so of air time.

linda b -

Thanks for the echo about Sierra Leone. With you and Judy I'm impressed with your global awareness and outlook.

Forgot the link to the above:

http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/52989/?type=blog

There is a chart that shows the speaking times of each candidate on that link.

Thank you Mike Cooper Jr and Sheri. I'm going to send this one along with Paul Loeb's: The Haircut that Won't Die to my totally confused Southern Baptist relatives in Tennessee.

I support Gore getting in the race, but there's a big problem. I know he's got a lot of support here, but when focus groups are asked about his possible candidacy, there's a big yawn. WE are clamoring for him to enter, but are most Democrats?

Last night, on CNN's focus group discussion after the debate, not one person supported Gore getting in the race. Everyone said he was a one issue guy, global warming, and that's not enought to run a campaign on. Although we know Gore has many other issues, apparently he is being typecast as a one issue candidate. And that's not good enough for a Presidential run. I hope Gore starts talking about much more than global warming to overcome this perception.

How can Gore move beyond this perception and rise above the clamor of the rest of the pack?

Here's something that didn't come up at Sunday's Democratic debate? Under what authorization did President Bush order a military strike on Somalia this past Friday-- essentially widening the "war on terror"? While the Dems argued about the best way to get out of this failed and disastrous war in Iraq, what Friday's military strike reveals is how our political system continues to evade the challenge of finding an exit from a misconceived "war on terror" --and the damage that "war" continues to inflict on our security and engagement with the world.

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/53006/

Indy wrote "I support Gore getting in the race, but there's a big problem. I know he's got a lot of support here, but when focus groups are asked about his possible candidacy, there's a big yawn. WE are clamoring for him to enter, but are most Democrats?"

I agree with Indy, and tend to think the longer Gore waits, the more he prejudices his chances.  However, given all that, I don't dismiss the positive effect that Gore's personna as superstar celebrity candidate, screen actor, and author might have, as well as the revenge factor emanating from 2000.  In our facile, plastic media age, it may be all the ammunition he needs.

45.

Steve, 

I didn't watch any of it but were those "focus groups" handpicked by CNN?

The last thing the right-wing media wants is for Gore to join the race. To even ask the question about supporting someone who hasn't indicated any interest in running is meaningless.

20.

former
Mon, 06/04/07
10:56 am

former, by my comment I meant that we liberals seemed not to find the subject of censorship by PBS officials newsworthy or worth talking about. Having said that, I do get news from blogs -- via links judyfordean and seashell and others leave here, as well as diaries on KOS, which have been invaluable during the petfood scare when the gov't and msm were basically not talking.

linda b

=====

read it - can see why

45.

Focus groups scare me. They indulge in groupthink and they are easily swayed by whatever opinion leader asserts hi/rself. This opinion leader could even have a grand plan to help a declared candidate, who knows?

The current field won't collude on very much, but they will collude on keeping Gore out. Because if he declares, the field instantly collapses to two or three.

I did not like the format.
Putting the big three (Edwards, Hillary and Obama) in the center where the cameras would stay the most hurt the others. Gravel and Dennis on the ends may as well have stayed home. This was not a good effort by Gravel as he limited to one or two sentences where the big three were able to expand on their posiitons. I thought he was getting frustrated by the lack of attention. Gravel was a big deal in the '70s with his filibuster on the draft and entering the Pentagon Papers into the Congressional Record. I think a lot of people owe him their lives.
Dennis finally got some time to air his big concerns; be a moral leader for the world, cut the war funding and Single Payer Insurance.

I thought the question of would they attack bin Laden in Pakistan if he was in a house with other people was very interesting.
Dennis gave the best answer by saying no as it often leads to other moral failings. The others said yes and Obama answered that it depends on the number of victims.
so what is the magic number? 5...10...50...100? Talk about hubris as that is one reason why the rest of the world hates us.
We talk about morals and getting the rest of the world to respect us and then we go ahead and tell them their lives our ours for the taking.
Go job Dennis

s/b good job Dennis.

All this Gore-talk reminds me of when there  was so much clamor for Colon Powell to run.  Powell's wife had a nervous breakdown after the accidental death of her son.  She never really got over it and every time they relocated (as is often with career soldiers) she would go off the deep end again. 

I believe Gore's wife has mental disabilities as well.  People don't  like to talk about it, and people forget.  We forget how gruelling a job being president is, not to mention the campaigning.

32.

Monica,

Interesting question about Edwards. Obama did the same for the Iowa Dem Convention this last weekend, opting instead to go to fundraisers in Calif.

It's kind of a slap in the face to the party not show up for state conventions no matter who attends them. Iowans, as I have read, were pissed with OB also.