Gravel is first.

Rescind the AUMF and impeach Bush and Cheney.

hi Scott, nice firsties

...however, I say Deans' are first here :-)

Great steps forward FL!

Will have to go research, but one of the Republicans in the debate agreed with Biden – divide the country into ‘states’.  Like, it isn’t already.  The Kurd’s have been separated thanks to us for years.  The Shi’ites have always been South.  The Sunni have always been in the Middle.   Iran will protect the Shi’ites.  Saudi Arabia will protect the Sunni’s.   The Sunni’s by the way, are not so radical.  It would be like blaming all the Republicans for Bush’s horrible mistakes.. now - there's an idea.  And we have been lied to from the start from Rumsfeld saying there was only 20% Sunni in Iraq.  BEFORE that time, most statistics said that Sunni  made up 35 – 40% of the population.  And the Kurds are Sunni, too.   

 Once we're gone Iraqis can sort things out for themselves. Surely we've learned that we can't dictate a solution.

=============================================================================

They'll sort things out all right.  Many, if not most, unbiased observers believe there will be a protracted civil war, complete with ethnic cleansing of the worst kinds.  The Sunnis believe they can win because the Saudis will back them with arms and money.  Obviously the Sunnis think they already have the advantage with numbers and Iran.

None of the surrounding countries want this war, starting out as a proxy war, it can expand into a regional war between the sponsoring countries and their allies.  None these countries want this but they would be pulled into it incrementally. Neither Saudis nor Iranians will stand by and watch their brethren get slaughtered without doing something

Aside from the horrors of war, there would be skyrocking gas prices, energy shortages, triggering a worldwide recession.

But like you say, John, they will sort things out.

one of the Republicans in the debate agreed with Biden – divide the country into ‘states’.

That's up to them; not our call.

Let's for God's sake leave so they can make those decisions!

There's absolutely no reason for us to stay in Iraq a minute longer. 60% of Americans want us out. 90% of Iraqis want us out.

We're there to cover King George's mealy ass so he can hand it over to the Democrats in 09.

That's an awful, despicable reason.

It's several days late putting on David's oped about Florida ballots. Old news is maybe better late than never.

Anyway, it's nice to have that jibberish off the first post.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-l-borosage/from-the-gippers-closet_b_47676.html

From The Gipper's Closet, Empty Suits

Ten white guys in dark suits and bright ties to answer questions. Three white guys in dark suits and bright ties to ask them. Stale ideas fit the staid image at the first Republican presidential debate last night at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library. MSNBC should have broadcast the event in black and white.

The Gipper himself would have felt at home.

What do these monochromatic candidates offer? Without exception, war and more war. No exit from Iraq. New confrontation with Iran, with only former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani mumbling a hint of caution. For former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney, brandishing his newborn wing-nut credentials, it's war not just against al Qaeda, Iraq and Iran, but against Shia and Sunni, Hezbollah and Hamas and more. Wartime for America.

All this is done while invoking Ronald Reagan's sunny optimism. But they've forgotten Reagan's basic caution.

The divorce from reality -- on the part of both questioners and candidates -- would have made the Gipper proud. Denial of the fact there is no military solution to the failed occupation of Iraq. No mention of our Gilded Age inequality, or broken health care system ("the best in the world," Giuliani boasted). They fixated on our budget deficits, which are the smallest of the industrial world, and ignored our unsustainable trade deficits and global debt, which are the largest in the annals of time and leave us dependent on the kindness of Asian central bankers. No mention of the families trying to raise children without affordable day care, paid vacation days, paid sick days or family leave. Not a word about college that is getting priced out of the reach of more and more Americans.

They offer themselves to lead America. But not only did those on the stage not look like today's America, it wasn't apparent that they were looking at today's America.

3.

Sam,

The Kurds would be more than willing for anyone to agree they have their own state. It is surprising that the Sunnis and Shiites don't quit fighting among themselves and try to take over Kurdville.

The Kurds are sitting there, minding their own business with the U.S., Turkey, and everyone else and are making out bigtime. They have become very wealthy. They better build a wall around their "state" if they ever get one.

Have a nice evening everyone.

From 9, above:

They fixated on our budget deficits, which are the smallest of the industrial world,

Canada has been running surpluses since 1999.

That's a pretty small deficit!

The Last Argument of Fools

http://www.counterpunch.org/blum05052007.html

"If the United States leaves Iraq things will really get bad."

This appears to be the last remaining, barely-breathing argument of that vanishing species who still support the god-awful war. The argument implies a deeply-felt concern about the welfare and safety of the Iraqi people. What else could it mean? That the US military can't leave because it's needed to protect the oil bonanza awaiting American oil companies as soon as the Iraqi parliament approves the new written-in-Washington oil law? No, the Bush administration loves the people of Iraq. How much more destruction, killing and torturing do you need to be convinced of that? We can't leave because of the violence. We can't leave until we have assured that peace returns to our dear comrades in Iraq.

To better understand this argument, it helps to keep in mind the following about the daily horror that is life in Iraq: It did not exist before the US occupation.

The insurgency violence began as, and remains, a reaction to the occupation; like almost all insurgencies in occupied countries -- from the American Revolution to the Vietcong -- it's a fight directed toward getting foreign forces to leave.

The next phase was the violence of Iraqis against other Iraqis who worked for or sought employment with anything associated with the occupation regime.

Then came retaliatory attacks for these attacks.

Followed by retaliatory attacks for the retaliatory attacks.

Jihadists from many countries have flocked to Iraq because they see the war against the American Satan occupiers as a holy war.

Before the occupation, many Sunnis and Shiites married each other; since the occupation they have been caught up in a spiral of hating and killing each other.

And for these acts there, of course, has to be retaliation.

The occupation's abolishment of most jobs in the military and in Saddam Hussein's government, and the chaos that is Iraqi society under the occupation, have left many destitute; kidnapings for ransom and other acts of criminal violence have become popular ways to make a living, or at least survive.

US-trained, financed, and armed Iraqi forces have killed large numbers of people designated as "terrorists" by someone official, or perhaps someone unofficial, or by someone unknown, or by chance.

The US military itself has been a main perpetrator of violence, killing individually and en masse, killing any number, any day, for any reason, anyone, any place, often in mindless retaliation against anyone nearby for an insurgent attack.

The US military and its coalition allies have also been the main target of violent attacks. A Department of Defense report of November 2006 stated: "Coalition forces remained the target of the majority of attacks (68%)."

And here is James Baker, establishment eminence, co-chair of the Iraq Study Group, on CNN with Anderson Cooper:

Cooper: And is it possible that getting the U.S. troops out will actually lessen that violence, that it will at least take away the motivation of nationalist insurgents?

Baker: Many people have argued that to us. Many people in Iraq made that case.

Cooper: Do you buy it?

Baker: Yes, I think there is some validity to it, absolutely. Then we are no longer seen to be the occupiers.

In spite of all of the above we are told that the presence of the United States military has been and will continue to be a buffer against violence. Iraqis themselves do not believe this. A poll published in September found that Iraqis believe, by a margin of 78 to 21 percent, that the US military presence is "provoking more conflict that it is preventing".

Remember that we were warned a thousand times of a communist bloodbath in Vietnam if American forces left. The American forces left. There was never any kind of bloodbath.

If the United States leaves -- meaning all its troops and bases -- it will remove the very foundation, origin, and inspiration of most of the hate and violence. Iraqis will have a chance to reclaim their land and their life. They have a right to be given that opportunity. Let America's deadly "love" embrace of the Iraqi people come to an end. Let the healing begin.

12 was a long post, sorry.But I couldn't decide what to cut--it's all so pertinent. It's worth repeating the punchline:

If the United States leaves -- meaning all its troops and bases -- it will remove the very foundation, origin, and inspiration of most of the hate and violence. Iraqis will have a chance to reclaim their land and their life. They have a right to be given that opportunity. Let America's deadly "love" embrace of the Iraqi people come to an end. Let the healing begin.

Huron John
Sat, 05/05/07
7:06 pm

===============

No John, it will ours too, politically if we succeed in getting the troops out without the proper exit strategy.

Whether Democrats realize or not, we are playing a high-stakes game of "chicken"  We are betting on the Republican resisting our call for exiting now, even though we know we don't have the executive power or the exit strategy to do it ourselves properly.

If Bush ever did say he was leaving to please the Democrats, we would be in big trouble because the ensuing disaster would be ours to blame.  As a Democrat, I don't want to see Bush's foreign policy disaster get blamed on us.

Biden seems to be one of the few Democrats that sees this looming over the horizon.

flying by:

Great Counterpunch article Huron John, thanks!

If the dems don't have someone like Gore, or Gore himself, Nader will insinuate himself again.

Gore/Gravel 

17.

seashell
Sat, 05/05/07
7:36 pm

..
Gore/Gravel
-----
!!!, or Gravel/whoever...

lol, it's Kentucky Derby Day and it's been ages since I posted a recipe...

The Early Times Mint Julep Recipe

* 2 cups sugar
* 2 cups water
* Sprigs of fresh mint
* Crushed ice
* Early Times Kentucky Whisky
* Silver Julep Cups

Make a simple syrup by boiling sugar and water together for five minutes. Cool and place in a covered container with six or eight sprigs of fresh mint, then refrigerate overnight. Make one julep at a time by filling a julep cup with crushed ice, adding one tablespoon mint syrup and two ounces of Early Times Kentucky Whisky. Stir rapidly with a spoon to frost the outside of the cup. Garnish with a sprig of fresh mint.
~ ~ ~

hattip to Renee's HEP thread :-)

oh, sea - do you think he (Nader) would do it again? Eek!

I read part of democracy as the ability for the citizenry to at the very least be able to register to vote freely and easily and the be able to have redress when the legislature fails to act properly or wisely.

The ability for groups in Florida to register individuals to vote has become much more difficult.  The LWV has already explained that they would have to think long and hard about continuing its registration drives, a program that reached`sort of the most disenfranchised people in the state.

As to citizen grievance through amendment to the state constitution this has been made impossible.  This was done in the interest of the developers and big monied players in Florida.

Lastly, the ability to prosecute and convict candidates of election fraud, an action designed to either circumvent the legal process or completely dupe and deceive the voting public, has been completely neutered.  As bad  a track record there is in Florida for such convictions there will most likely be none from here on out.

All of this was sacrificed for paper ballots as Florida Democrats went along with, knowingly and happily, the utter dissoution of democratic rights so that the "sexy" issue could pass.

I am surely excited that Florida will have a verifiable paper trail now, but I truly wonder at what cost.

The Last Argument of Fools

http://www.counterpunch.org/blum05052007.html

"If the United States leaves Iraq things will really get bad."

===========================================

John, I have no argument with the article, but the article focuses on the insurgency, and the occupation as whole.  The insurgency is not the problem now.  It is a very very small part of the reason for daily violence in Iraq.  What has developed now is outbreak of growing ethnic strife similar to Bosnia. 

I am not arguing to stay in  Iraq, per se, but to leave without the proper diplomatic, strategic, and logistical exit strategy.  We need a change in Iraq, but leaving immediately is not the change we need, not until we take certain steps.

The poll you quote is an old one that gave a choice between two questions, neither of which answer was satisfactory.  Other polls have found that 3/4 of Iraqis greatly fear a sudden US total pullout - under the present conditions.  They fear a bloodbath.  I wouldn't bet the future of the region on a poll or two with a couple of  selectively skewed questions. 

Yes they want us out, but greatly fear that reality under the present conditions, and would like to see a more stable situation evolve before we left that vacuum.

We need to assemble leaders in the regions, in Europe and the Middle East and many meetings with the leaders and groups within Iraq, and a whole new approach to governance there.  Bush's brand of Democracy is not working and has made "the former Iraq"  worse. 

Let America's deadly "love" embrace of the Iraqi people come to an end. Let the healing begin.

==============================

The violence at this stage now  has nothing to do with the American occupation

- and the much greater violence that will erupt within the security vacuum, if nothing changes in the country before we leave -

will have nothing to do with the occupation either.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7...

Al-Qaeda's number two has taunted George Bush, the US president, in a new video posted on the internet.


According to the US-based Site Institute, which said on Saturday it had seen the video, Ayman al-Zawahri sarcastically referred to a congressional bill that ties funding for the US effort in Iraq to a timetable for troops to withdraw.

"This bill will deprive us of the opportunity to destroy the American forces which we have caught in a historic trap," al-Zawahri said, adding the bill was evidence of American "failure and frustration".
.......
Al-Zawahri also congratulated Bush "on the success of his security plan" in Iraq and invited him to celebrate with "a glass of juice, but in the cafeteria of the Iraqi parliament in the middle of the Green Zone", referring to the site of a recent suicide bombing.
.......
Al-Zawahri also spoke on a number of other topics in the video, including fighting in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Algeria, and Somalia.
.......
.......
In it al-Zawahri called on minorities around the world to join the struggle against "oppression", saying: "We aren't waging jihad to lift oppression from the Muslims only, we are waging jihad to lift oppression from all of mankind, because Allah has ordered us never to accept oppression, whatever it may be."


http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7...

Fred

The outcome will be the same sooner or later so tell me again why wasting American lives and treasure is a good idea. 

If we leave my personal opinion is that their patience with al Queda bombings will evaporate and both sides will hunt them down as a first order of business if we leave, and that is our only legitimate reason for having any forces stay.

7.

Huron John
Sat, 05/05/07
7:10 pm


There's absolutely no reason for us to stay in Iraq a minute longer. 60% of Americans want us out. 90% of Iraqis want us out.

--->
...sure there is, if you want to suck up to your special interests and AIPAC knowing the threat of war with Iran stays if you are still in Iraq.

That's another reason these Media pushed Front Runners are wishy washy on ending the occupation in Iraq.


Disgusting.

It warms the cockles of me heart to see a few paying attention to the words from Gravel...free of spin words these be, a rarity from politicians, journalists and bloggers nowadays. I remember the spins in my youth, not a good thing...lol

23.
The violence at this stage now has nothing to do with the American occupation.
___________


If one replaced occupation with liberation...who might have said this?


OUT NOW...simple sometimes works

Linda*in*SFNM
Sat, 05/05/07
8:26 pm

================================

From a purely logistics point of view, I beg to differ.  The first thing Bush might decided to do as we leave Iraq, is go directly to Iran.

It is very hard for him to threaten Iran while he is bogged down in Iraq.  There is a troop shortage, if you haven't heard.

If one replaced occupation with liberation...who might have said this?

===============

Let's discuss this intelligently instead of making silly innuendoes based on out-of-text semantics.

I skipped the State Central Committee meeting to plant corn and lucked out with the rain backing into Nebraska after nicking here yesterday. about a week late which some years doesn't hurt yields much depending on pollination. less than 100 acres to go before starting the beans

I get more done face to face and I have work to do to get ready for the offyear workshop as communication chair of the event, so the next rainy day I'll catch up.

mark your calendar for July 14th in Peosta, we are going to cram the DFA like training into one day, while listening to some of the 08 crowd in between sessions and at lunch

want to chair a caucus? want to use the VAN? influence the platform? win a campaign?    better come

Reed in VT
Sat, 05/05/07
8:32 pm

====================

What is Gravel's blowhard exit strategy?  Start your engines?

"body bags coming back" "game over"

thanks Mark, the influence of Frank Zappa to my ear

Fred.
What is the difference if we leave now, next month, or next year...nothing other than more death. Spin all you want...there is no good exit strategy but more importantly, there is good reason to leave.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18503740/


Tape of alleged al-Qaida in Iraq official on Web


DUBAI - An audio tape has been posted on the Internet purporting to come from al-Qaida in Iraq leader Abu Ayyub al-Masri, who the Iraqi Interior Ministry said was killed in internecine fighting with fellow militants this week.
..............
..............
"What you are hearing from satellite channels about internal fights between us and Jihadist groups, or with our blessed tribes, is just lies and fabrications," the purported voice of Masri, who identified himself as minister of war in the Islamic State, said in the audio tape.

"(These reports) are aimed at the division of our jihadist line," he said in the 21-minute tape.

Masri said the Iraqi Islamic Party, the largest Sunni party in parliament, headed by Vice resident Tareq al-Hashemi, and other Sunni groups were campaigning against his group but their differences ought not to lead to violence.

"We would not like you to shed our blood, and we do not like to shed one drop of your blood ... just leave us with the enemy, we do not want anything from you," he said.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18503740/

Even the terrorists are laughing at us, knowing we're between a rock (putz) and a hard place (congress)  Putz could never be called *hard.*

I think timetables are off the table folks.  Most dems are cowards even tho the people are still behind them...for a short while longer.  Benchmarks will be ignored by both putz and the Iraqis.

Paygo the supplemental by rescinding the tax cuts and make putz's eyes bug out.

Repeal the war powers act.  I think even many repugs would go along with this, especially now that we're all calling them ... angrily. 

29.

FRED from OR
Sat, 05/05/07
8:34 pm

....
Let's discuss this intelligently instead of making silly innuendoes based on out-of-text semantics.
---------
31.

FRED from OR
Sat, 05/05/07
8:36 pm

=========

What is Gravel's blowhard exit strategy?
**********

As per Gravel's blowhard semantic style..., lol:

What to discuss "entelligently"? Exit "strategy"?
Ok. Exit "strategy" = EXIT ASAP...

Fred.
What is the difference if we leave now, next month, or next year...nothing other than more death. Spin all you want...there is no good exit strategy but more importantly, there is good reason to leave.

===========================

Well, we have a difference of opinion.  There is a good way to leave.  Just because Bush is not pursuing the correct exit strategy, does not mean it does not exist.

Most of the unbiased observers among college professors, philanthropic organizations, journalists, etc. have influenced me in arriving at the position I have taken and have instilled the fears for the future I express here. 

What have been the deternining factors in your position?

"body bags coming back" "game over"

thanks Mark, the influence of Frank Zappa to my ear

=================

I lived through it too Phil.

L O V E printed on his forehead Title 8 could use a little jug music thrown in mprov, I am realy digging your DVD, thanks much

31.

FRED from OR
Sat, 05/05/07
8:36 pm

===========

What is Gravel's blowhard exit strategy? Start your engines?

--------------

...lol, of course not.
At least not yet.

Wait (while discussing intelligently) until will have to starting your engines on the roof of the Embassy in the Green zone,...lol.

What to discuss "entelligently"? Exit "strategy"?
Ok. Exit "strategy" = EXIT ASAP

========================

We won the Congress because the country wanted a change of direction and a way out of Iraq.

I wouldn't bet that they wanted a blind-sighted ASAP so-called "cut and run" and neither do the Iraqis.

Fred

the country just wants to get the f*ck out

Reid Pelosi is dragging our feet compared to the rest of the country. Washington is in a bubble.

the speed of withdrawal won't change the outcome

Wow, quite a mouthful for saying nothing...ditto on my end, simple, eh?

41..."cut and run"...hahaha, Iraqis are saying run or I'll cut!

They want us out, we want us out...what's the problem?

41.

FRED from OR
Sat, 05/05/07
8:56 pm

....
We won the Congress because the country wanted a change of direction and a way out of Iraq.
---------

Not!
"We won Congress" because those "insurgents", "islamo-fascists", "killers", (in normal human language: Iraqi resistance fighters that fight army of occupiers) were SENDING BACK HOME to America TOO MANY BODY BAGS. In fact it was SO MANY that American people WERE FORCED! to reconsider its attitude toward this war.




I wouldn't bet that they wanted a blind-sighted ASAP so-called "cut and run" and neither do the Iraqis.
---------
That not to the American people to decide now. Too late.
It's to those Iraqi resistance fighters to decide.

the problem is the masters of war dont want us out

written 40+ years ago..../

http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/masters.ht...

Thank you chilimac...you win the prize : )

And the brainwashing media works on good folks...don't ya know.

Phil...how be the knee?

45.

chilimac
Sat, 05/05/07
9:06 pm


the problem is the masters of war dont want us out
-----------
That's correct.
If there is a master..., there are slaves too...

nobody is forcing us out

the question has become "What's the point?"

no one has an answer

and for an inspired version of Dylan's song...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2kk-v7NL...

51.

Phil Specht
Sat, 05/05/07
9:12 pm

nobody is forcing us out
the question has become "What's the point?"
no one has an answer
----------

???
If we wouldn't have 3-5 killed kids every day would we asked that question ("What's the point?")?

I'm in doubts..., we would, most likely, ENJOYED! lower gas prise..., wouldn't we?

former
Sat, 05/05/07
9:06 pm

That not to the American people to decide now. Too late.
It's to those Iraqi resistance fighters to decide.

==================================

Don't forget the "pottery barn"

It is easy to blame the present mess on the other party, but if don't assume the responsibility for what the United States did there and do our level best to undo the damage, we are as bad as Bush and the Neocons.

That does not mean "fighting the war" - what is does mean is winning the peace

And that is the way the world will see it, and that is the way the Iraqis and the Moslem world will see it.

Kinda hard to put the worms back in the can once opened.

We don't peacefully withdraw and we don't peacefully stay so the longer we stay prolongs the time when we don't peacefully withdraw.

former
Sat, 05/05/07
9:06 pm

this isn't Nazi-occupied France.  There are no "resistance fighters"  There's a bloody  civil war between two factions, and the Bush doctrine arranged the confrontatio through a series of ignorant blunders.

That doesn't mean we have to "leave well-enough alone"  and accept  it as the best we could do there.